The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Counsel General

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on the agenda this afternoon is questions to the Counsel General, and the first question, Huw Irranca-Davies.

<p>Section 127 of the European Economic Area Agreement </p>

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 1. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the potential legal implications for the Welsh Government of a judicial review of Section 127 of the European Economic Area agreement? OAQ(5)0018(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for that question. As I understand it, the British Influence think tank has sought permission for a judicial review in relation to the applicability of the European Economic Area Agreement to the UK, in relation to Brexit. It is not clear whether permission will be granted, but I understand that an oral hearing for ‘leave’ is now listed to take place in February, which is, in fact, after the Supreme Court judgment in the Article 50 case is likely to have been received.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Counsel General for that answer. And, of course, he’s drawn our attention as well to recent issues, including the recent application for a judicial review. So, could I ask, in light of that, and his answer, what steps the Welsh Government is taking to protect the interests of the people of Wales, bearing in mind indications from the Prime Minister that failing to secure access to the single market, or continued membership of the customs union, are not barriers to triggering article 50?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the first thing to say is that the new case that’s being brought under article 127 does relate to an important area where the UK is a signatory to an important treaty. It’s worth looking at the specific legal arguments that have been put, as we understand it, in that particular case. What they are saying is that membership of the European Union is a gateway to join the EEA but is not a precondition to continued membership. They say that the UK is a contracting party to the EEA in its own right, and must itself trigger article 127 of the agreement, in order to leave the EEA, which is a voluntary act and not an obligation upon leaving the EU, and that article 127 implicitly excludes other means of leaving the EEA, such as leaving the European Union. And, whilst there are currently two pillars for EEA membership—the EU pillar and the EEA pillar—there is nothing to prevent further pillars being established bilaterally. So, those are the arguments that are being made.Article 127 of the agreement basically states that each party may withdraw from the agreement, provided it gives at least 12 months’ notice to the other contracting parties. And the UK is, of course, a party to the EEA agreement, and the agreement is also one of the EU treaties that is woven into the fabric of our constitutional settlement by the Government of Wales Act 2006. So, if the case is to go forward, via this litigation, the UK Government is being asked to clarify its position on withdrawal from the EEA under article 127. So, we look forward to seeing what the UK Government actually have to say about that.And, as has been stated publicly by the First Minister and the Welsh Government, we’re committed to ensuring that there is full and unfettered access to the single market, and we are open to exploring all other options to achieve that aim. The interest, as has been explained, is quite clear: we have 20,000 workers in the automotive industry who are dependent on being able to export to the EU, and 7,000 steel jobs and many thousands of agricultural workers’ jobs that are dependent very much on access to that market. So, within that context, the EEA model, which gives three of the four European Free Trade Association states access to the EU single market, is something that really does need to be looked at very, very closely.So, in principle, a need to withdraw formally from the EEA could raise similar issues to that which have been raised in the Miller case, on which we’re waiting the judgment, obviously, from the Supreme Court imminently. We are exploring these issues. It wouldn’t be appropriate to comment further at this stage, but, as I’ve said, the Welsh Government is clear that having full and unfettered access to the EU single market is good for goods, services and capital, and it’s a top priority, in order to protect jobs and the Welsh economy. So, it is vital that businesses in Wales are not disadvantaged through unnecessary trade barriers, quotas, or technical barriers to trade. So, it is a situation that we are monitoring very, very closely, and much may be determined by the content of the imminent Supreme Court judgment.

Michelle Brown AC: Remaining in the EEA would allow the EU to continue making our trading laws, and require the free movement of people, which the majority of your constituents voted against. If a legislative consent motion comes before this place, will you vote with your constituents or with Jeremy Corbyn?

Mick Antoniw AC: My constituency, of course, is Pontypridd, and the majority of the constituents in Pontypridd constituency actually voted to remain, so I suggest you’re asking me to take action for ‘remain’. [Laughter.] But what I would actually say is that my role here is that of Counsel General, which is as adviser to the Welsh Government and to protect the constitutional interests of the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Government.

<p>The Enforcement of Welsh Government Legislation </p>

Hefin David AC: 2. What discussions has the Counsel General had regarding the enforcement of Welsh Government legislation? OAQ(5)0016(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: Members will know that my advice is legally privileged, but I place a great value on the use of enforcement powers to make legislation effective. You will be aware of the prosecution work being undertaken by me to protect both marine natural resources and the integrity of food produce in Wales through the enforcement of Welsh law.

Hefin David AC: A constituent of mine is an ecologist and previously contacted me expressing his concerns about the enforcement of Welsh legislation underpinned by the EU habitats directive once we leave the European Union. This is one example and the Counsel General’s given an example. He’s previously given an assessment of the general effect of triggering article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon on Welsh Government legislation. Would he specifically comment on the implications that European Union withdrawal will have for Welsh laws?

Mick Antoniw AC: The answer is yes, there will certainly be—. One of the areas I’m concerned about is ensuring that, whatever changes and lacunas that occur in respect of Welsh law, nevertheless, we are able to adequately and properly enforce our laws and those areas within our jurisdiction. So, to that extent, you’ll be aware of the statements that I’ve made in respect of the fisheries prosecutions and the various food prosecutions that have been taking place.You raise a very valid point, and it was a point that we raised within the Supreme Court in terms of those areas where, suddenly, there will be significant gaps in laws that have to be replaced. The number of laws and regulations are, in fact, significant. In fact, we expect there to be, in the environmental area in terms of regulations, some 5,200, and many of those, on leaving the EU, will suddenly become gaps in legislation. That is why there is such a major task and why the UK Government is having to take on so many new lawyers and administrators to actually deal with all these complex issues.As far as the law is concerned, what is already transposed into Welsh law will remain in Welsh law and will be a matter for the Welsh Government and, of course, the Assembly to decide what laws should then remain. Where Welsh or UK law gives effect to an EU law, many aspects of that EU law may be ones that Wales representatives, UK representatives and the UK Government and so on, will have actually promoted and wanted. So, if these are EU laws that we have supported, we may want to see them retained, and where EU law applies directly in Wales, and therefore has not been transposed into Welsh or UK law, the Welsh Government and the Assembly will need to consider if the policy underpinning that EU law represents the best way forward for Wales and what changes should be made to the law in Wales to bring that about.

Eluned Morgan is not in the Chamber to ask question 3. Question 4, Jeremy Miles.

Question 3 [OAQ(5)0019(CG)] not asked.

<p>Court Closures </p>

Jeremy Miles AC: 4. What representations has the Counsel General made in relation to the impact of recent court closures in Wales? OAQ(5)0017(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: The Welsh Government has continued to make representations to the UK Government about the adverse impacts of court closures on access to justice, which, for many people, will mean longer and more expensive journeys to attend court and much more limited access to justice.

Jeremy Miles AC: In my constituency of Neath, we’ve now lost the magistrates’ court and the county court. In the case of the magistrates’ court, that involves people travelling to Swansea. A population of 140,000, previously served by that court, which is about the size of the city of Cambridge, no longer has local provision. I have constituents who have missed court opportunities by trying to combine medical visits with being at court and relying on a bus service. So, there are very profound social justice implications, as the Counsel General has indicated. What response has he had to those concerns around social justice when he’s raised these representations with the UK Government?

Mick Antoniw AC: I’m well aware of the Member’s interests in this area. Neath magistrates’ court closed in May 2014, with work transferred to Swansea. The Neath and Port Talbot civil and family court closed in July 2016, with business transferred to the Port Talbot justice centre. In addition, in mid and west Wales, courts have recently closed in Carmarthen Guildhall, Brecon law courts and Bridgend law courts and, of course, the impact in rural areas is particularly significant, significantly increasing journey times to court.Court closures, of course, are only part of a wider Ministry of Justice programme of cuts, including reduced access to legal aid, raising revenue, including increased court fees. Taken together, these changes are having a significant impact on access to justice for vulnerable people and communities. It’s worth saying that, overall, there has been a substantial number of reductions in the number of courts in England and Wales since 2010. Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service closed 146 courts between 2010 and 2015. An additional 86 courts in England and Wales are now being closed. Of the 42 court and tribunal buildings remaining in Wales, after previous closure programmes, nine have already been closed under the current programme, and a further court, in Llangefni, is due to be closed.So, we have made representations. We continue to make those representations. Unfortunately, those representations appear to fall on deaf ears. This isn’t an area that is, of course, devolved. If it were devolved, I think the Welsh Labour Government would be going in a very different direction.

David J Rowlands AC: Following on from the comments of the Assembly Member for Neath, as a former justice of the peace, I know that the closure of Abergavenny court, in my area, makes it almost impossible for defendants to attend the two remaining courts at Cwmbran and Newport, given that many will have to use public transport. Do you know whether these factors were taken into account, and was your predecessor able to have any input into these decisions?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, of course, there was a consultation, but the point you make is exactly right, and was exactly the same issue as in my own constituency of Pontypridd, when that court closed. Where detailed representations were made, as they were in respect of Cwmbran and Abergavenny, showing that the basis on which the decisions were being taken, in terms of access to courts, was actually substantially flawed—that it was actually almost impossible to achieve the access to other courts on the basis that was being suggested. From all I can see, that has been totally disregarded.

<p>The Supreme Court Case on Article 50</p>

Simon Thomas AC: 5. What representations has the Counsel General made in relation to the Supreme Court case on Article 50? OAQ(5)0021(CG)[W]

Mick Antoniw AC: My apologies—I wonder if you could ask me that again. [Laughter.]

Simon Thomas AC: Diolch. Now that you’re plugged in, Counsel General.

Simon Thomas AC: 5. What representations has the Counsel General made in relation to the Supreme Court case on Article 50? OAQ(5)0021(CG)[W]

Mick Antoniw AC: The case we put to the Supreme Court at the hearing on 8 December is that an Act of Parliament is required to authorise the UK Government to serve notice under article 50. Such a fundamental change to the devolution settlement can only be made by Parliament and must not be allowed to bypass the Sewel convention. As the Member is probably aware, judgment is expected imminently.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Counsel General for that response. I was hoping that the judgment would have been made by the time I asked this question, but may I welcome the fact that the Welsh Government has spent £84,000 to protect the interests of this place and democracy in Wales? I think it was worth every penny. I compare that expenditure with the expenditure by the Westminster Government to challenge Assembly legislation in the past, specifically the agricultural wages Bill—the expenditure of one Government is acceptable while that of another Government is not. For me, it’s more than acceptable that the Counsel General has approved this expenditure. Without the expenditure and without this case, and without being part of the case in the Supreme Court, I doubt whether we would have got the wording that we had in the statement and speech made by the Prime Minister, Theresa May, yesterday, when she made it clear that consultation was required with the Welsh Parliament and Government before we proceed with the process of leaving the European Union. So, I do think that this place has been protected in this case.Now, assuming that there will be a court case, and that the Westminster Government believes that the court’s decision will go against them, what practical steps does the Counsel General consider to be appropriate for this Parliament to take as we proceed and respond to the triggering of article 50?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, could I firstly thank the Member for his comments? I perhaps differ from him to some extent because it is absolutely awful that we’ve had to spend £84,000 on the case. It was absolutely right that we were in court in the most important constitutional case for 300 years, but I think it was totally wrong that the UK Government, on an issue of establishing a royal prerogative to bypass Parliament, should have actually appealed the High Court decision and actually incurred not only the cost that we had to incur, but also the cost that had to be incurred then by Northern Ireland and by Scotland. And, of course, no wonder the UK Government, six times, has refused to disclose the considerable amount that it has probably expended as well. But in terms of our position, I believe that we were absolutely right: we would have let the people of Wales down if we had not had a Welsh voice. In terms of the importance of what may happen, if the judgment upholds the High Court decision, which requires legislation, what that does then—it gives an opportunity for further engagement through Sewel, engagement with the Parliamentary process, which is what Sewel establishes, and we can look, within our working practice, at achieving an objective that whatever legislation is brought forward to trigger article 50, it also includes within it a duty of engagement and consultation with devolved, and I would even say regional Government, to ensure that there is a proper voice of the people in the actual deals that are being done that will affect people’s jobs and lives, and the investment in our country.

Neil Hamilton AC: The Counsel General, and, indeed, the Welsh Government in general, consistently say that they respect the judgment of the Welsh people in voting to leave the European Union on 23 June last year in the referendum. Will he accept that the purported use of the royal prerogative to trigger article 50 in this case is qualitatively different from all previous exercises of the royal prerogative because this is in pursuance of the decision of the British people in that referendum, and therefore, triggering article 50 would be to fulfil the express wish of the British people rather than to frustrate it, and any attempt by the Welsh Government to stand in the way of the judgment of the Welsh people is to be deprecated?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the fundamental point that the Member just does not get, does not understand, no matter in how much detail it was explained in the Supreme Court, is that the argument is that there is no royal prerogative to replace laws and to undermine the role of Parliament. That was the whole point. There is no royal prerogative. If it ever existed, it was abolished by the bill of rights and by a series of decisions in the courts. That was the fundamental point. The Government could not rely on a prerogative that just did not exist. Parliament is sovereign. We operate under a system of sovereign parliamentary democracy. That was the fundamental point. The unfortunate point is that the Member seems to want to play fast and loose with the rule of law. And where that has happened in the past in other countries, it has led to an undermining of the rule of law. It is a very dangerous road to go down.

<p>The Wales Bill</p>

Simon Thomas AC: 6. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers regarding the Wales Bill? OAQ(5)0020(CG)[W]

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, Members, and the Member in particular, will know that this answer is subject to the established law officers’ convention. The Wales Bill today will be receiving its third reading in the House of Lords.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Counsel General. Of course, I was expecting that kind of answer. One of the things that we discussed yesterday in approving the LCM, even by those who voted in favour of that motion, was the concern about the use of the words—in English, because the Bill is only in English—’relates to’, and that that could be a means of restricting the devolution that’s taken place in the past. On the other hand, there were many here, particularly on the Conservative benches, who stated that sufficient clarity had been provided by Ministers of the Crown in Westminster to demonstrate that this wasn’t going to be used to restrict or limit democracy. So, insofar as you can give advice or comments in this Chamber, I’d like to know whether you’re of the view that the Bill has now found the right balance between the reserved-powers model and the fact that Ministers of the Crown still have this right to intervene in relation to the ‘relates to’ test?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, the answer to that is the Bill is unsatisfactory and inadequate for many reasons, most of which were explored and set out in detail yesterday by yourself, by the First Minister and by many others. What was obtained, again through hard negotiation, was a narrative that explains that that was not the intention of using the ‘relates to’, to actually undermine the devolution process and devolution legislation. That is some assistance insofar as it is there—it is in writing. But again, as with many of these things, it is going to be a question of trust and goodwill, and we will find out when legislation goes forward whether that is honoured. I would expect it to be honoured. I think it was made with good intent and goodwill, but we have to work on the basis in the future that that will continue. If it doesn’t it will result in more matters themselves going into the Supreme Court. The point the Member made yesterday, though, was a very important one, and that is that Sewel will go onto the statute book. That is fundamentally important. In itself, it doesn’t create necessarily a veto at this stage, but what it does mean is that it can’t be removed. It is there. It establishes in law a convention, and over a period of time that convention becomes a fundamental part of the constitution. So, the issue of justiciability will remain in terms of what normally can and can’t be done. These will be issues, I think, that will become part of our constitutional debate in the future. So, it is a step forward. As in many things, sometimes there is one step forward, two steps backwards. This I think actually is a step forward in some areas, it’s a step backwards in some areas, but overall a decision had to be taken yesterday and we’re aware of the decision. We now know where we are in respect to the Wales Bill, but there will be challenges and there will be difficulties.

Thank you, Counsel General.

2. 2. Statement: The Trade Union (Wales) Bill

The next item on our agenda is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government on the Trade Unions (Wales) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make his statement—Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to make a statement in relation to the Trade Union (Wales) Bill, introduced on Monday. The Bill seeks to disapply sections 3, 13, 14 and 15 of the UK Trade Union Act 2016 as they apply to public services in Wales. There will be many Members here who recall the background to this Bill. The UK Conservative Government, following the General Election of 2015, introduced a Bill that sought to curtail the rights of trade unions and their members in a series of significant areas. The Welsh Government repeatedly intervened to set out our belief to UK Ministers that the Bill trespassed directly into the conduct of devolved public services, and that the Bill should be amended to exclude Wales from those provisions that cut across the responsibilities of this Assembly. My predecessor, Leighton Andrews, wrote to his counterpart, the First Minister wrote to the then Prime Minister, and the Conservative Minister of State for Skills wrote to his colleagues informing them that the legal advice from First Treasury Counsel concluded that the UK Government had a very weak case in relation to Wales. The National Assembly itself, in a vote on 26 January, decisively declined to support a legislative consent motion to allow the UK Government to legislate for Wales in this area.None of that mattered. The UK Government went ahead anyway, claiming their ‘very weak case’ was sufficient to deny this Assembly’s competence in this area. Let me deal, then, immediately with that competence issue. The Supreme Court has made it clear that provided a Bill provision fairly and realistically relates to one or more of the subjects in Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Act 2006, and does not fall within any exception in that Schedule, it does not matter whether a provision might also be classified as relating to a subject that has not been devolved, such as employment rights and industrial relations.Significant elements in the UK Government’s Act relate specifically to public services that in Wales are unambiguously devolved responsibilities. The Act refers explicitly to health services, the education of those aged under 17 and fire services—all of which are plainly devolved. It is untenable, we believe, for UK Ministers to argue that their legislation must be regarded as concerned exclusively with non-devolved matters. It is this Government’s view that the relevant provisions of the Government of Wales Act 2006, insofar as they involve the delivery of public services, are to be found set out in section 108 and Schedule 7 to that Act and that they bring the provisions of this Bill squarely within the devolved competence of this National Assembly.Now, Llywydd, all of this was well known and extensively rehearsed when the original UK Bill was making its way through the Houses of Parliament. Despite all that, the Government at Westminster decided to go ahead anyway. They had no political mandate to do so for Wales, they had no constitutional right to do so and they had no legal basis on which to do so, but none of that could stand in the way of their ideological determination to attack the rights of organised labour.As that became clear, my predecessor provided a commitment to bring forward a Bill in the fifth Assembly to reverse the effect of these provisions and to reflect the outcome of the LCM debate. That position was reflected in the Labour manifesto at May’s election last year, it was confirmed by the First Minister when he set out the legislative programme for the first year on this Assembly term on 28 June last year, and the Bill before you today is the product of that history. It is a brief Bill, but one with a significant task of protecting the long and successful tradition of social partnership in Wales, because that is what is at the root of our objections to the UK Trade Union Act.The result of the confrontational approach to industrial relations is to be seen every day across our border where the politics of social division lead inevitably to damage to the economy and to public services. Here in Wales, our record is very different. In 2014, when firefighters were on strike in England, we reached an agreement with the Fire Brigades Union in Wales and strike action was avoided here. In 2015, when I was health Minister in Wales, nurses, midwives, occupational therapists and others were on strike in England. Here, we negotiated and we negotiated hard with our ‘Agenda for Change’ staff to find an outcome that was acceptable to them and affordable to us. No strikes took place in Wales. In 2016, the health service in England was scarred by that bitter dispute with junior doctors, which we were able to avoid here in Wales.Llywydd, the damage does not end when strike action finishes. The legacy is real and the damage goes on. Alongside its Trade Union Act, the UK Government consulted on proposals to rescind regulations that prevent the supply of agency workers to cover industrial action. We have therefore consulted on proposals to sustain the principle that agency workers should not be deployed in that way. The consultation has now closed and the results are being analysed. One option would be for us to include provision in this legislation by way of amendment in later stages, provided the Bill makes progress. I will provide a further statement to Members as consultation analysis comes to an end.Now, all of this, Llywydd, is why we work so hard to make the social partnership model work in Wales. The delivery of high-quality, devolved public services depends upon an engaged and committed workforce. For our key services, recruiting, retaining, developing and enabling a stable and engaged workforce is vital to shaping and securing the future of those services. And it’s in order to achieve that aim that the Welsh Government works collaboratively and in partnership with Welsh public authorities, including employers, employees and their representatives. That social partnership model is put at risk by the divisive provisions of the UK Act. It is our clear view, and that of trade unions and public service employers in Wales, that its effect will be to lead to more confrontational relationships between employers and workers and so undermine the delivery of public services and the Welsh economy. Our Bill seeks simply to reinforce and protect our social partnership arrangements by maintaining the existing settled arrangements within the Welsh public sector, which have supported positive employer-employee relationships, including the right of trade unions to organise and, when other avenues have been exhausted, to take industrial action. It requires a culture of integrity, openness and trust, in which the shared aim is of early resolution of disagreement and the pursuit of consensus, even when there are difficult decisions to be made.Llywydd, we have a successful model here in Wales. It is not for UK Ministers to invent some new doctrine in which they claim a right to interfere in areas that, under the terms of our current settlement, are unequivocally devolved to the Assembly and to do so in a way that is entirely contradictory to our approach to public services. It is for this Assembly, rightfully, to decide how we want to see those services delivered in Wales. That is the position that our Bill sustains, and I look forward to working with Members here and others to secure its passage onto the statute book.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I’d like to begin my contribution this afternoon by reminding everyone that Plaid Cymru strongly opposed the British state’s Trade Union Act 2016 when it was brought forward to the last Assembly, because Plaid Cymru strongly believes in the importance of the work of the trade unions in our society and supports those unions. It’s only through partnership between workers, industry, employers and the Government that we can make the best of our economy, and by respecting our workforce in full we can reduce dispute and the need for industrial action.Everyone in this Chamber will recall the difficulties at the Ferodo site in my constituency at the turn of this century. The Friction Dynamics affair highlighted the absence of justice for the workforce and how the imbalance of employment law assisted the efforts of the employers to destroy the trade unions in the workplace. That ultimately led to the closure of the works at the expense of the community. Although the strikers followed all the complex rules and regulations that control industrial action, the company broke many rules without anyone taking any action against them. This was a very dark chapter in the history of my area and we must avoid similar situations in future. This Bill, therefore, is a clear effort by this national institution to protect the rights of workers in Wales, in areas that are devolved specifically to this National Assembly. This Bill is undemocratic according to the Conservatives in England, which is an arrogant claim, if I may say so. I am referring here to the debate on the thresholds, and on that basis, I want to share an interesting scenario with the Chamber: what would happen if we were to use what the UK Government define as a reasonable threshold and a democratic mandate for industrial action, which is captured under the trade union Act, to the result of the general election of 2015? I am talking specifically about that 50 per cent threshold and the 40 per cent threshold. If that were to be the situation, this would have been the outcome: the Conservatives achieved 37 per cent of the national vote on the basis of the total vote of 66 per cent. Introducing a 40 per cent threshold, that figure falls dramatically to 24 per cent of those registered to vote. That would have meant that the Conservatives wouldn’t have reached the necessary threshold and therefore would not have been elected, which would have created a very interesting situation indeed.What’s true of democracy in Wales, of course, is that participating in a democratic vote is a choice, without any specific thresholds being put in place by any Government. Whatever the differences between us as political parties in this Assembly, with Plaid Cymru often challenging the current Labour Government on the way it deals with public services, it is a fact that Wales is not a nation affected by industrial action very often. As you mentioned three particular examples, the trade unions are less likely to take industrial action here, and I would argue, as you have done, that this is because of the existence of the social partnership. That is also true in Scotland. That has emerged over the past year with the junior doctors’ strike that happened in England only. There was no such strike here in Wales or in Scotland, and this is mainly down to the social partnership approach taken here.The Labour Party claims that it’s the party of the trade unions and the workers, but, unfortunately, the stance of the party since the days of Tony Blair has contradicted that at times. Indeed, since the dark days of Thatcher, when a number of new rules and regulations were introduced with the intention of weakening the trade union movement, such as making secondary pickets illegal, the Labour Party did nothing to overturn those damaging policies during Tony Blair’s tenure as Prime Minister. But I am pleased to see the efforts made in this Assembly, at least—. [Interruption.] I am pleased, having said that—having made some comments about the Labour Party and their record, which perhaps isn’t the record that one would have hoped for during the time of New Labour—I am pleased to see the efforts in this Assembly, at least, to challenge these most recent attacks by the Conservatives on workers’ rights here in Wales. The greatest tragedy of this Bill is the inability of the Welsh Government under the current devolved settlement, and for the future too under the Wales Bill that was approved here yesterday, to extend and safeguard workers’ rights outside of the public sector in Wales. I hope that we can all collaborate on a cross-party basis on this issue in order to protect and promote the positive role that trade unions can and should play in Welsh society today.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Sian Gwenllian, for those comments. I acknowledge, of course, that Plaid Cymru was part of the opposition to the original Bill in Westminster and here on the floor of the Assembly too. And the things that Plaid Cymru said at that point focused on partnership and the way in which we try to approach things here in Wales. I fully remember standing outside Ferodo in Caernarfon with the last First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, talking to the people who were suffering from what was going on at that factory. In my view, if we can proceed in a cross-party manner, that will be of great assistance in supporting the Bill and supporting the steps that we want to take here in Wales to make progress in the successful way that we have developed here in Wales, and to keep that for the future.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We appreciate that trade unions are valuable institutions in British society, and that many dedicated trade unionists have a strong history of working hard to represent their members, campaigning for improved safety at work and providing support to their members where needed. However, it is only fair that the rights of unions are balanced equally with the rights of our hard-working taxpayers, who rely so heavily on the delivery of our key public services. The aim of the UK Trade Union Act 2016 is to rebalance the interest of employers, employees and the public with the freedom of trade unions to strike. It has moved public services away from the threat—the threat—[Interruption.]

Sorry, Janet. Can I just ask that the counter-argument, possibly, to this statement be allowed to be made and to be heard? Diolch, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: [Continues.]—of being held to ransom by a small minority of union members who could disrupt the lives of millions of commuters, parents, workers and employers at short notice, and without clear support from the union’s members. Cabinet Secretary, if a teacher or a public service manager on high salaries—£40,000 or £50,000—strikes, many parents on much lower salaries are then affected. They’re the ones unable to send their children to school; they’re the ones unable to actually attend their own work; they’re the ones themselves losing pay. Is this not about affecting our—. Isn’t this just affecting our middle-class public sector workers at the expense and inconvenience of the lower socioeconomic members of our society?Llywydd, it is completely sensible that such strikes only take place on the basis of a reasonable turnout and a substantial vote in favour by those able to vote. They should have that freedom of choice. Isn’t it the reality, though, that this isn’t about protecting our workers; this is simply about Welsh Labour and the Welsh Labour Government rewarding the trade union barons on whom your party relies so heavily, financially, especially during election times? I see a massive conflict of interest on the part of your party and this Government. Prior to the UK Act, seven out of 10 trade unions, with their political funds in Great Britain, make absolutely no reference to the right to opt out of political funds on their membership forms. How fair is this on our hard-working public sector employees? Where is the freedom? Where is the choice? The UK Act requires trade unionists to opt in—a much fairer and a much more equal policy—to political funding, as has so successfully worked in Northern Ireland since the 1920s. Such measures bring trade unions in line with corporate donations, as outlined in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. Cabinet Secretary, is this something that your proposed Bill will seek to repeal? It is disappointing that, having voted through the LCM on the long-awaited Wales Bill only yesterday, you are already seeking to undermine this forthcoming new devolution settlement by introducing a Trade Union (Wales) Bill. I am not sure that my constituents in Aberconwy see this as one of their priorities, and they certainly don’t see it as one of yours for this Government to make. This is a blatant attempt to undermine a UK Parliament Act that is safeguarding our public workforce and seeks to avert major disruption to our vital public services. Cabinet Secretary, the Llywydd has noted in her correspondence to the Chair of the Equalities, Local Government and Communities Committee that some or all of the operative provisions of this Bill might be ruled outside Assembly competence if the Bill was referred to the Supreme Court under section 112 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 or challenged after Royal Assent. So, I would like to ask you here, today: what actual cost-benefit analysis have you undertaken in bringing forward such legislation, particularly on a matter that, shortly, will be fully codified in law as being reserved at UK level? Has the civil service scoped the extent to which this legislation will have an impact on our people in Wales? And, what scrutiny have you even thought about or given to the impact on cross-border companies that may well now decide to do business outside Wales as a result of this?Finally, Cabinet Secretary, will you advise why you think that acting to repeal a UK Parliament Act that safeguards ordinary working people from undemocratic strike action ensures greater transparency, and how taxpayers’ money being simply diverted from public services to union officials is a good idea for the people of Wales? I think it is a disgrace that you’re even considering bringing this Bill forward. I will be seeking to put amendments to it and I will certainly be opposing it.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr. A bit difficult to know quite where to make a start on that rehearsal of clichés, ancient and modern. I think the Tory position was very well captured in the very first sentence of Janet Finch-Saunders’s contribution when she sought to do what the Tories do all the time, which is to pit one group of people against another, when she referred to workers, not taxpayers, as though workers were not taxpayers, and yet every trade unionist captured by this Bill is a taxpayer in their own right. But that is a very, very standard Tory approach, to try and pit one group of people in our society against another. That’s why their original Bill was so badly flawed. It will add to, not subtract from, the risk of bad industrial relations. The reason why we are so determined to bring forward our Bill is that we are confident that it will improve the conduct of industrial relations in Wales. It will avoid the necessity for strikes, because it will do the hard work of social partnership.Now, when I was talking to those trade union barons in the Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association about strikes going on across our border, it was not because the challenge we face in Wales was any less than it was elsewhere, it was simply because by bringing people around the table, by being prepared to listen carefully to what they had to say, by being prepared to recognise the point of view that they were expressing on behalf of their members, and then to do the hard work of trying to find a way through those difficulties, that we avoided the position that the NHS in England has found itself in, and found itself in in a serial fashion. Llywydd, I don’t wish to be unkind, but I suppose I would have to say that it would have been helpful if the Member had managed to read the three clauses of the Bill before this afternoon. It is a very short Bill, after all. I think she would have found that the cost-benefit analysis she looked for is there in the regulatory impact assessment. It would have allowed her not to make her final point about companies taking business across our border, when this is a Bill entirely about the provision of public services. So, I think many of the bogeymen that the Member has marched across the floor of the Assembly this afternoon turn out not to be there at all. The purpose of the Bill is entirely the opposite of the one that she pointed to. It will help avoid strikes, it will help promote social partnership, it will do things in a way that is right for Wales, and I look forward to opposing her through every single step of this Bill.

Neil Hamilton AC: UKIP applauds the social partnership approach of the Welsh Government, because no sensible person wants to see confrontation in industrial relations. The Cabinet Secretary and I are old enough to remember a time when there really was confrontation in industry and in public services in this country. That’s why the trade union reforms of the 1980s were brought in. In the 1970s, there was an average of 13 million days lost to strikes every year. In the 1980s that halved to 7 million; in the 1990s it was down to 660,000, where it’s been—broadly speaking—static ever since. That’s why the Labour Governments under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown made no attempt to repeal the legislation that they and their predecessors so vigorously opposed when it was passing through the House of Commons in the 1980s. If the social partnership model of the Welsh Government is so successful, which it appears to be, I can’t really understand why they think that the proposed measure being introduced at Westminster is such a threat to the good relations that currently exist between public service unions and the government in its various forms in Wales. Because the illusory threat of having to have a strike ballot to reach the thresholds in the proposed legislation won’t even be triggered, because of the approach that the Welsh Government takes. So, I wonder what is the purpose of introducing the Bill, to take up the time of this Assembly, when there are many more pressing matters that we can use the time upon. It is a fact that trade unions are virtually extinct, or at least redundant, outside the public sector in the United Kingdom today. In the real world, as it were, where people have to trade their services, trade unions no longer seem to have very much of a role. As voluntary membership organisations, they have to persuade people to stump up their membership subscriptions, and they haven’t been terribly successful at persuading their potential members to do so. In the public sector, it’s very, very different. There’s a very high proportion of people who join a union. That is because the difference between the public and the private sector is that decisions, ultimately, in the public sector are political, because the employers, ultimately, are politicians and, therefore, this is the way in which pressure is brought.I think anything that makes it easier to call a strike in these circumstances is a threat to the interests of the public at large. After all, trade unions and their members are a sectional interest, not the public as a whole, and we’re talking here, 100 per cent, about public services that every single elector and the elector’s children will use at some time during the year. Surely, the interests of the public must take precedence over sectional interests, and therefore it is right that there should be a reasonable threshold before calling a strike. Strikes should be not the first resort, but the last resort. I therefore ask the Cabinet Secretary: why are we playing with fire in this instance?

Mark Drakeford AC: It will be no surprise to Members here that I don’t agree with the Member’s recollection of history, but it isn’t just his understanding of the past that’s at fault here, it’s his understanding of the present as well. His idea that there are no unions involved in private companies in Wales—has he not heard of Ford or Tata or Toyota or many other private sector employers that I could mention? I have to say to him what the First Minister said to him yesterday: his interest in reasonable thresholds was much less to be seen during the referendum campaign, when he was not interested in introducing artificial thresholds into that piece of voting.He asked me about the provisions in our Bill. Let me just give him one example of why we are so determined to act. The UK Government’s Bill places new barriers in the path of workplace representation. Now, why do we think that having proper access to time in order to represent your members is so important? It’s because you cannot have a social partnership model unless all the partners at the table have access to the time they need in order to discharge their responsibilities. It simply makes the likelihood of strikes greater, not less, if employers are unable to speak directly, in a timely fashion, on behalf of those people they represent. All our Bill does is to retain the status quo in that regard—the status quo that has been successful. His way of doing things would take us backwards. Our aim is to make sure that the future of industrial relations in our great public services is properly sustained by a balanced set of relationships between the Welsh Government, employers and employees. I say again to Assembly Members: this is not a Bill simply supported by trade unions, it is supported by the great public service employers as well. They see the advantages of having proper representation for their workers, because that’s how they have the dialogue they need in order to address and resolve the collective issues that face them.

Dawn Bowden AC: There’s some kind of comfort, actually, in listening to the Tories, because you do realise, after all, that they are still the same old Tories and nothing’s ever changed. But, Cabinet Secretary, can I say that I’ve spent most of my working life campaigning and fighting against anti-trade union legislation and against attacks on working people, and it’s refreshing and very welcoming to hear your statement today? It’s seen that the Welsh Government is seeking to overturn the most recent attacks on trade unions from what can only be described as the most vindictive trade union Bill that we’ve seen in recent times. As Neil Hamilton, actually, said in his contribution, strikes are down, public services workers generally have not been involved in conflicts in Wales and so on, but, despite all of that—despite the record lowest strike days in living memory—we’ve still got a trade union Bill that was introduced to try to prevent strike action.There are many aspects in the statement, Cabinet Secretary, that I welcome, but I particularly want to deal with the artificial threshold for industrial action that Sian Gwenllian was talking about, and I totally agree with the points that she was making. Whilst industrial action is always a last resort and something that we have largely avoided here in Wales, as you mention in your statement, we have to acknowledge that, in a free society, it must be a tool available as a last resort to working people. If we start going down the slippery slope of saying that that should not happen, we are also going down the slippery slope towards totalitarianism. Surely, no fair-minded individual would understand the logic in applying thresholds to determine the democratic outcome of an industrial action ballot—that is different to every other democratic process that we have in our country. As Sian Gwenllian has already said, if we applied that, we wouldn’t be talking about Brexit; if we applied that, only 25 per cent of Tory MPs would be elected; if we applied that, not one of us in this room would be sat in this Assembly; if we applied that, we wouldn’t have a councillor in Wales. So, let’s just move away from the nonsense that this is, somehow, a fair way of dealing with workers.Frankly, my assessment of what I’ve heard from the Tories, throughout the time that the trade union Bill was going through in England, is that these people don’t actually understand how trade unions work. I spent 30 years working as a trade union official, and my experience was that, whenever there was a ballot for industrial action, which was always—always—as a last resort of anything that workers ever did, people had the right to partake in that ballot or not, as was their choice. If they chose not to take part in that ballot, my experience was that, regardless of whether they had participated, they honoured the democratic outcome of that ballot in exactly the same way as my constituents, whether they voted for me or not, whether they voted for anyone or not, have had to accept that I am now the elected representative for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. It’s no different in terms of industrial action ballots for trade unions.What I would say is that trade union members do understand the role that their elected representatives and officials take in negotiating with employers, and, when those representatives make recommendations to them, they are happy to accept it, and they don’t need to be tied into a threshold around ballots to take decisions around industrial action.So, ultimately, Cabinet Secretary—because I’m coming onto the point that I wanted to raise with you—under pressure from the Lords, in the Trade Union Act in England, the Government has agreed to a review of electronic balloting, because that was one of the biggest obstacles for trade unions in terms of involvement of members in ballots. Once workplace balloting was removed, it became very, very difficult to actually get that level of involvement. So, does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that any mechanism that facilitates greater participation in ballots is to be welcomed? Because trade unions, despite what we have heard, do actually want to see their members involved in these processes. Can I ask him, rather than just looking to rely on a review of the benefits of electronic balloting, whether he would consider going a step further in allowing electronic balloting, or workplace ballots, even, in devolved public services?

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank the Member for her utterly effective demolition of the case that some Members have tried to make here this afternoon in relation to ballot thresholds? In a previous life, Llywydd, I would have to sit across the table, as the health Minister, from the Member when she was a full-time trade union official, and a formidable trade union official she was. If I think back on that time, I remember a few sleepless nights, when I worried about how I would be able to take forward some of the things that she wished to advocate on behalf of her members. But, most of all, I remember the incredible work that she and her colleagues in that union carried out every single day, in order to prevent problems—which could have escalated and led to greater difficulty—how they got stuck in, how they represented their members and how they solved those problems. What an astonishing asset it is to our public services to have that group of people who carry out that activity on behalf of workers in our public services every single day.On the point that the Member raised about electronic balloting, and then, of course, the independent review of electronic balloting, which is now under way, and came, of course, as a hard-won concession during the passage of the Act, I think electronic balloting has the clear potential to increase participation in democratic balloting for industrial action, and that is to be welcomed. The fact that there is an independent review now happening to explore the arguments and take evidence is another step forward, secured by the trade union movement. I look forward to the outcome of that review with great interest, and to seeing what use we can then make of it here in Wales.

I have a long list of speakers wanting to ask questions of the Cabinet Secretary within the hour. Lead spokespeople of parties have now contributed, so with succinct questions from Members, I hope to get through all requests. This is a statement, not a debate. Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed AC: Diolch. I would like to echo what Sian Gwenllian has already said, and also pick up on the points eloquently made by Dawn Bowden also in relation to the fact that I think some people in this Chamber don’t actually understand how decisions are made in trade unions. I’ve never been in a discussion where striking is a first resort—it’s always been, in fact, erring on the side of caution, and wanting to do anything but get to that particular action.Obviously, we’ve seen that there is precedent here, in relation to the agricultural wages Bill, and as far as I can tell, the way is clear, therefore, for the Assembly to introduce this Bill. But there is always a ‘but’, and I do worry about how long any Act will last. So, my question is: can I seek assurances from the Welsh Government, if you have had assurances from your officials, that you’ve got to the point of understanding that it won’t be superseded by the Wales Bill? What is stopping the UK Government from passing further legislation that will have the effect of cancelling out this Bill? Has the Welsh Government any contingency plans for this eventuality? And are you justifying using time and resources on the basis that this could be realistic? Coming from comments that Janet Finch-Saunders has outlined today, I would predict that it could be very much something that the UK Government would look to doing, despite the fact that they have enough work on their plate to be looking to getting us a fair deal for Brexit.I also would like to pick on the point briefly with regard to the competence issue. The Tories are saying that the competence is in question, but would you not agree with me that it is hypocritical for the Conservatives to say that it is not within competence, when they voted against it originally? Surely they should have abstained at that point if they thought that there was a question over competence that has now come to light.Those are my questions here today. But I think what we need to remember in all of this is that it’s not about political barons, it’s not about whether money goes to whichever political party—it is about fighting for the rights and the welfare of those workers. And more fool us not to recognise that, because, whether you’re a member of a political party or not, we have to remember that people don’t take action lightly, and they’re doing it to support their families, to support their communities. And that is why this Bill is important—not some sort of convoluted political argument over whether it should happen or not.

Mark Drakeford AC: I entirely agree with the last point that the Member made, and it’s an important point to get on the record. I agree with her as well—the fact that there was a vote allowed here on an LCM in the previous Assembly, and the fact that political parties across the Assembly took part in it, suggests that those political parties agreed that there was a competence issue at stake here.Her first question was about whether the Bill will be superseded by the Wales Bill. Just to be clear, as Members here will know, this Bill begins under the devolution settlement we have today, provided that we can complete Stage 1 before the Wales Bill comes into force. Then it will continue under our current settlement. We’re very confident that we’ve timed it so that we’re able to do that. Her second question though is a more difficult question, isn’t it? Because, in the end, as we know, the House of Commons retains the ability to overturn anything we do, whatever the argument of competence might be. I simply say that it would be a democratic outrage if this Assembly were to debate this Bill, were to agree to this Bill, were to put it on the statute book for public services, entirely devolved here in Wales, for a body outside of this Assembly to seek to overturn it.

Suzy Davies AC: Just in the interest of transparency—although it’s not a registrable interest—I should explain that I’m a member of the Conservative Workers and Trade Unionists group. There’s been a lot of political passion in this today, but I just want to get to the heart, Cabinet Secretary, of why, out of the whole of the trade union Act—I know we’ve talked a lot about the thresholds today—you’ve chosen to amend section 172A and section 116B. Because in the case of the amendment to section 172A, I don’t think there’s any restrictions in that original section; it’s merely a reporting requirement, which, from my perspective, seems to be about ensuring the efficient use of public money and that, of course, should be of interest to you as Cabinet Secretary, as well as employers and employees. They’re constantly reviewing the cost-effectiveness of their activities and procedures paid for from the public purse. I’m not quite sure why trade union reps, often in the very same building, are excused that. Very similarly, where the employer bears the entire cost of administering subs, surely the other question, in this day of Pingit apps and so forth, is whether this presumption of it being the employer’s role to do this is still current.So, my questions are: what consideration have you given to the usefulness of the information that could be collected under section 172A to help manage public finances? What consideration has been given to the cost-effectiveness of other forms of collecting subs and whether it’s reasonable for wealthy trade unions—not the individual members, but the trade unions themselves—to contribute to the cost of their activities when these costs are currently being met entirely by the employer—activities covered by those two sections? Bearing in mind your written statement and the work that you’re doing on agency work, can you confirm that, effectively, the Bill as laid now, is a Trojan horse Bill and that you’re planning to introduce a number of amendments to cover work that you’ve not been able to do in time for tabling this Bill when you have, and that you have tabled this Bill as a result of the Lords split vote fairly recently? This is an important matter for this Assembly because, from what I can see from your explanatory memorandum, your consultation has been restricted to the workforce council, which does not cover the whole of Wales, and it was on the UK Bill rather than the specifics of this Bill. Furthermore, it’s completely unclear which legislative process is subject to Assembly scrutiny with regards to this Bill being commenced, and bearing in mind that you’re proposing to commence this Bill by regulations, I really would be grateful if you could give some clarity on that.

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, to be clear, the workforce partnership council does cover the whole of Wales. It is a Wales-wide body; it has members on it who have a Wales-wide remit. The consultation on agency workers was by no means confined to the workforce partnership council; it was available to any organisation or individual anywhere in Wales, or beyond indeed, to make a contribution to that consultation. The Bill is not a Trojan horse Bill. In fact, it’s anything but. It is a very narrow and very specific and tightly drawn Bill, where amendments will only be allowed if they are able to be brought forward within that very tight and specific ambit. There is no coincidence in the timing of the Bill and anything that happened in the House of Lords or anything that happened here in relation to the Wales Bill. As I explained in my statement, this was a commitment in Labour’s manifesto; it was signalled by the First Minister back in June of last year and the fact that we happened to have these things in front of the Assembly in the same week is simply an accident of timing and nothing more.In relation to the questions that the Member asked me about the content of the Bill, then the answer is this: we seek to remove those additional impediments that the UK Bill places in the path of trade union members being able to pay their subscriptions in a straightforward way, and trade unions themselves being able to discharge their responsibility on behalf of those members. We are seeking simply to sustain the status quo. It is the Conservative Party that seeks to add new impediments in the path of those ways of doing things. I am entirely content that all the measures that we take in this Bill are consistent with our pursuit of effective social partnership.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I speak today as a Member who is proud to have served working people in my former role as a trade union official, and is proudly committed to continuing to stand up for hard-working and often undervalued public servants as an Assembly Member. It also means that I am probably coming at this from a slightly healthier understanding, perhaps, of the issues than others who have contributed today. We are proud of our social partnership in Wales, and it’s not just for the sake of doing things differently from Westminster. It is actually because it does reap results and it is for the benefit of the worker, workplace and Government. The Cabinet Secretary mentioned the ‘Agenda for Change’ negotiations of a couple of years ago, where I also had the privilege of sitting on the other side of the table. While those discussions were tough and compromises were involved, we got there. Compare that to what happened with my then colleagues over the border in England, who had the door firmly shut in their faces, which ultimately led to industrial action that we did not see here. Restrictions on facility time for local reps will damage this social partnership and erode the work done by trade unions to improve equal opportunities and practices, and remove one of the best protections that employees currently have from discriminatory treatment. Facility time potentially pays dividends for both employers and workers, and these attacks on facility time in the UK Government legislation have the potential to damage workplace productivity and employee well-being. There is definitely a gap between the well-rehearsed rhetoric that we are hearing around this debate and the actual reality of real life. Failure to have adequate facility time could actually, in fact, result in a higher cost to the employer, as they will be required to negotiate and consult with individual employees. The employer will also potentially see increased caseloads, as much trade union time is spent resolving these issues before they escalate into full cases. So, Cabinet Secretary, can I say: do you actually recognise the reality of the work that local union representatives do, and that it is helpful rather than harmful, and that facility time is an essential part of empowering employees and should be both protected and respected?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I entirely agree with the point that the Member makes. Of course, facility time pays dividends for employers. It was a point made by the WLGA yesterday in the statement they put out welcoming the Bill. That is because employers recognise the work that trade union representatives up and down our public services do every day. It is a point I made in replying to the Member for Merthyr and Rhymney. In my experience, as a Minister at the time with responsibility for one of our great public services, the smooth running of those services, the solving of problems in those services, and the corralling of evidence from employees of where the service could be made better—those things were immensely improved by the availability of local representatives, absolutely dedicated to those public services and able to bring those matters to the attention of employers through sensible and effective use of facility time.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, thank you for your statement this afternoon. I agree with you that unions do play an important role in the workplace, especially in righting wrongs that workers might face. They have, over many years, improved working conditions across the United Kingdom. But the issue for many people is the politicisation of many of those unions and, in particular, the detachment of what the general secretaries of many of those unions are seeking to achieve in the political arena from the workers who have historically signed up to be members of those unions. I do find it somewhat galling to hear the Cabinet Secretary say that the UK Government do not have a mandate. This was part of the manifesto of 2015 that was endorsed by the British people, and, when the Cabinet Secretary talks about the social model here in Wales, I’m only now reading about the strike that is going to be taking place in Abertawe Bro Morgannwg health board, where the Unison organiser there says, Hospital sterilisation staff don’t feel the health board is listening to them or properly understands the work they undertake.’This is a statement. [Interruption.] I’d love to take the intervention, but, sorry, I can’t. It goes on to say that staff feel as if they’ve just walked in off the street. Just before Christmas, we were dealing with a strike in the national museums, which the Welsh Government were particularly slow at dealing with. Many of us will remember that, when you were the health Minister here in Wales, the BMA had the temerity to point out the troubles that were facing the health service in September 2014, and they were thrown to the wolves in this Chamber by the First Minister for daring to point out some of the fault lines in the Welsh NHS. They took the unprecedented step of every single chair of their committees, from their consultants committee to the junior doctors committee, sending a letter to each and every Member in this Chamber. So, please, do not try and paint some glorified picture that doesn’t exist; it might in your fantasy land, Cabinet Secretary, but it doesn’t exist in Wales today, I have to tell you. We will be challenging this Bill as it goes through the Assembly, and also in committee, as Janet Finch-Saunders has highlighted, not because we oppose the role of unions, because we believe unions have a valuable role in improving workers’ rights. But what we oppose is the politicisation of what the general secretaries are trying to achieve by working hand in glove with the Labour Party. But the specific question I would like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, is in particular about your last paragraph, where it says,It is for this Assembly rightfully to decide how we want to see those services delivered in Wales’. Do you believe that, if you think that you have a case to legislate on terms and conditions, therefore you are opening the door to regional pay, and actually you will be doing a huge disservice to public sector workers in this country by prosecuting your case to make this Bill stand on the statute book? I believe that you are offering the introduction of regional pay if you persist with this Bill, Cabinet Secretary.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for his contribution. I don’t agree with his final point. I think it is stretching the argument well beyond where the facts would take it in order to suggest that this Bill, which simply disapplies a number of trade union-related matters, somehow opens the door to regional pay in Wales. I simply don’t accept his argument there. I think it’s right that I should point out to him that the strike action in ABMU, were it to go ahead, would have met the thresholds in the legislation that his party has put on the statute book. So, there would be no recourse there. As far as his points about the BMA are concerned, I think he is simply adding to the case that I have made. The social partnership model is not about cosy relationships in which you always agree, but it is about being willing to go on sitting around a table with people who have different views to your own, and to be willing to engage seriously and attentively with the points they made and to be able to demonstrate to them that, where those points have a relevance, you are willing to act with them in order to solve it. I met the BMA every six weeks that I was health Minister. Those meetings were not always comfortable meetings, but the fact that they knew that they would always have a hearing and that I would always be willing to think carefully about what they had to say was the reason why, when junior doctors were on strike in England, the BMA proposed that its members here in Wales would keep working. The social partnership model is absolutely borne out by the point that he made. I think any politician who complains about politicisation is to be taken with more than a pinch of salt. He started off by saying to me that this was a Bill that proceeded from the manifesto of a political party in England. If that isn’t politicising things, I don’t know what is.

Jeremy Miles AC: I warmly welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s statement—indeed, restatement—of the Welsh Government’s commitment to the individual and collective rights of public sector employees in Wales. Let’s not forget that the restrictions that this Bill seeks to address were things that were too toxic even for that 1980s Conservative Government, which was uniquely hostile to trade unions, to touch. It’s as well for us to bear that in mind.I’d like to touch on one of the less prominent parts, which has been touched on already, which is the question of the deduction of union subs from wage packets. It’s a straightforward and accessible means for individual members to keep up with their union subs. Contrary to the implication, I think, in Suzy Davies’s question, it is usually the case that unions pay the employer a percentage of those in order exactly to cover the costs, so that there isn’t a cost to the public purse of providing that service. It strikes me that we have Conservatives in Westminster, and on the benches opposite who support them, who are accustomed to having money deducted for their pensions and for their gym memberships and their cycle-to-work schemes and so on, but are resisting this for individual employees in Wales, which indicates that it’s a naked attempt to restrict the democratic rights of individuals to join and become members of a trade union. So, will he take this opportunity, in contrast to the UK Government, to restate the Welsh Government’s position that it would want to see as many public sector employees as possible being active members of trade unions?

Mark Drakeford AC: I absolutely agree with Jeremy Miles. What we want to see are trade union members who take an active part in the work of their union and express their daily dedication to the public services that they provide, by making that participation part of that contribution. I agree with the point he made in the beginning as well. The 2016 trade union Act reforms the 1992 Act, which was good enough for 13 years of Conservative Governments. And I’d make the point again: it’s not this Welsh Government that is seeking to change the status quo here; we simply want things that have worked successfully to go on working successfully. The change comes from those who have a very different sort of agenda.

Michelle Brown AC: When New Labour’s hero, Tony Blair, said he regretted bringing in the Freedom of Information Act 2000, he didn’t mean because it didn’t go far enough; he meant it had given people access to information that he wished he hadn’t granted them. Tony Blair may have left office, but Welsh Labour are carrying on where he left off as far as hoping to keep information away from the public is concerned. Their proposal to reject legislation requiring public bodies to disclose to the public how much time public sector employees are spending on union activities is a blatant attempt to hide information Labour feels the public will dislike. Labour must know that the information would cause outrage among the taxpayers of Wales, otherwise there would be no reason to withhold it. Were people to ask how much money and time is being spent on any other activity undertaken by public sector employees, denying the public the answers would not be tolerated. If this legislation proceeds, I think I would be justified in filing and FOI request every week, asking how much time has been spent on union activity, and to let the public know myself. I also share the public’s view that strike ballots should be subject to at least a minimum level of approval by union members. I am concerned for workers’ rights and it’s important to remember that unions have done a huge amount to improve workers’ conditions and wages. But it seems reasonable that there should be a minimum threshold for support by members before industrial action can take place. To those who claim that the new rules would obstruct unions from representing their members, I would say this: if you can’t get enough support from your members for strike action, you clearly are not representing their views. If the strike ballot fails to reach that level of support, it will be no-one’s fault but the unions’. The public seem to support a minimum threshold for strike action, and Labour’s objection to it can only be because they value their union donors more than they value transparency and what the public want. Labour needs to remember that the public sector is there to serve the taxpayer, not the other way around. Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I think Members across the Chamber have dealt with the threshold issue very successfully, this afternoon. The Member herself would not be here if she subjected herself to the argument that she’s so keen to subject others to. As to her first point about information, I hope I can help her there: I could let her know that 2.2 per cent of private sector workplaces have a full-time trade union representative; 2.8 per cent of public sector workplaces have a full-time representative; 84 per cent of employers agreed with the proposition that having such a representative was helpful to them in the conduct of their work. That information, far from being secret or kept away from the public, is to be found published by the Department for Communities and Local Government, and the Member is welcome to pursue that source for more information of the sort she seems so keen to obtain.

Joyce Watson AC: Well, it’s been an enlightening debate and there’ve been a few bits of enlightenment that have come to the fore. The first thing that has very much come to the fore is the lie that UKIP is the party of the working class, because all they have done today is talk against the opportunities that we are trying put in place for hard-working people. Whilst we’re on this phrase of ‘hard-working people’—taxpayers and others—I would challenge some of the statements that have been made today about trade union representatives coming somehow to earth out of dark corners, who are clearly not taxpayers, who are clearly not parents, who are clearly not people who represent their communities or the organisations that they work for, which have clearly been put forward by Janet Finch-Saunders, the leader of the Tory party and everybody else from that side of the Chamber today. I don’t know why it is that the Tories do not understand that their one trick doesn’t work anymore. This is their single one trick: that if you put the workers against the bosses, if you put the rich against the poor and if you put forward those people who need representation and those who people who try to do it in different camps, it doesn’t work. So, we had the disgrace yesterday of comparing those people who are trying to represent other people, by the leader of the Tory party, as somehow less deserving than others. I just want to set the record straight here today. I want to set the record straight because the Wales TUC has developed a network of equality reps, and that was introduced in 2012 by the Welsh Government. The reason why that was introduced—that these trade union reps were introduced—was because they could be trained on how to support people most at risk of discrimination within the workplace. So, who would those people be? They will be people who have autism. They will be people who have learning disabilities. They will be people who need a voice when there is no other voice available to them. That is why we want to give time for those union reps to be able to make that representation. Just forget your one trick because it doesn’t work. Let’s call it out for what it is. I’m sure some of you here are members of trade unions. I’ll bet you are. I’ll bet there are plenty of Members over there who are members of trade unions.

Are you addressing the Cabinet Secretary or a political party? You do need to address questions to the Cabinet Secretary.

Joyce Watson AC: I’m actually going to say that what this Act—. What we’re trying to do against this Act is prevent us, the workers in Wales, from being compared by the International Labour Organization committee to an Act put in place that is the most draconian since Thatcher and that has put us now in the spotlight with Qatar, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and others. That’s exactly where your Act is. It is shameful, it is disgraceful, and so are some of the comments that I’ve heard today. And that is why I want to call them out. That is why I want to call out the lie about those people who will not—

Joyce Watson, you do need to bring your comments to a close now and ask questions of the Cabinet Secretary.

Joyce Watson AC: So, I want to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, if you believe that this Bill will help to reduce the conflict that we’ve heard about today, and encourage resolution of that conflict in the public sector workforce?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Member has very skilfully drawn attention to the wider social partnership agenda that having trade unions able to discharge their responsibilities brings to Wales. We’ve concentrated in this statement on the conduct of direct industrial relations, but social partnership is much more than that. No progressive ground has ever been gained without a struggle, whether that is in equality matters, whether it’s in discrimination matters, or whether it is here in Wales through the action that we have taken on blacklisting in the construction sector, whether it’s securing a living wage in the NHS in Wales, or whether it’s producing a refreshed two-tier workforce code for Wales, when it’s been abandoned across our border. The social partnership model goes beyond the micro conduct of industrial relations to that far wider canvas of progressive causes here in Wales. I agree absolutely with her final point that those gains are much more likely to take place when you have constructive relationships and when you are able to get round the table together. This Bill is designed to protect that position in Wales, and to protect us from the conflictual model that is inherent in the Act that is currently on the statute book.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. 90-second Statements

The next item on our agenda is the 90-second statements. Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Yesterday, in one of his final acts as a fine President of the United States, Barack Obama commuted the prison sentence of Chelsea Manning. This action will be welcomed by many in Wales. Though a US citizen, Chelsea Manning was educated, as Bradley Manning, in Tasker Milward School, Haverfordwest. A school friend there described her as unique, extremely unique, very quirky, very opinionated, very political, very clever, very articulate. In 2010, as a serving US army officer, Chelsea Manning released an enormous amount of secret data to Wikileaks and ‘The Guardian’ newspaper. Her leaks revealed the scale and depth of human rights abuses in the middle east following military intervention. Chelsea Manning did not flee justice but faced the consequences of her actions and stood trial. During this process she also began to identify as a woman. Her penalty has been severe: a 35-year military prison sentence, to be served as a woman in a male military prison. She has had long periods of solitary confinement. The response of the authorities to a suicide attempt was another period of solitary confinement. She has suffered enormously and disproportionately for her offence. After all, the US now has a President-elect who publicly calls for the illegal hacking of democratic institutions. President Obama has extended compassion to Chelsea Manning, and in doing so has upheld values that I, and I hope the Assembly, hold dear.

Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. AEDs, or automated emergency defibrillators, are thankfully becoming more and more commonplace within Wales, and Members I’m sure will be as dismayed as I was to hear that two defibrillators provided by charities and local fundraisers in my region were vandalised recently. AEDs are designed to be easily used when help is needed, particularly when somebody has suffered a heart attack. The intention is for people without any medical training to use them, and they only give out an electrical pulse once they detect an irregular or no heartbeat. After a cardiac arrest, survival chances drop by 14 per cent for every minute that passes without treatment, so being able to administer treatment as soon as possible is key, and these defibrillators are used very effectively during that period of time when the emergency services proper are arriving. The British Heart Foundation and Welsh Hearts are just two charities working to install more of these devices throughout Wales and to increase awareness. And to date, Welsh Hearts have installed 482 defibrillators in community centres, shops and even old phone boxes. While those examples of vandalism that I mentioned earlier are not the norm, they have helped to highlight how our communities are backing these accessible defibrillators. The support offered from local groups to raise money for the repairs, particularly on one of these boxes, has been absolutely fantastic—in Mumbles. The provision of defibrillators and of the training of basic emergency lifesaving skills are just two examples of how community groups, charities, businesses and the Welsh ambulance service can work together to save lives. I hope that, during the course of this Assembly, support for defibrillators and emergency lifesaving skills will become even more strong. Thank you.

Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Tomorrow is the last day of President Obama’s term in the White House. In 2014, he visited my constituency for the NATO summit at the Celtic Manor. Stephen Bowen, a school governor and Rogerstone community councillor, wrote a compelling letter to President Obama with an offer he couldn’t turn down: a visit to Mount Pleasant Primary School. The presidential car, fitted with US and Welsh flags, was a real sight to see. He welcomed pupils with ‘Bore da’, sat in on a lesson, talked, laughed and joked with the children, and gave them an opportunity to ask questions. For those children, along with the many hundreds who had gathered outside, this was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, never to be forgotten.After the visit, US Ambassador Matthew Barzun said:The warmth of your welcome not only demonstrated the best of Welsh hospitality, it was a testament to your great community spirit. It is exciting that it left a mark in the minds of the next generation.’I understand that the President’s only regret was that he did not have the chance to play a round of golf at the Celtic Manor.The President has left a great legacy: the introduction of Obamacare, progress in preventing climate change, the legalisation of same-sex marriage, and much more. All the while, he led with integrity, warmth and complete faith in the good of people. I’m sure the Chamber will join me in wishing him and his family the very best for the future. And he’s always welcome back in Newport for that round of golf at the Celtic Manor.

4. 4. Plaid Cymru Debate: Tata Steel

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, amendment 2 in the name of Caroline Jones, and amendment 3 in the name of Paul Davies. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendment 3 will be deselected.

The next item on our agenda is the Plaid Cymru debate on Tata Steel, and I call on Adam Price to move the motion. Adam Price.

Motion NDM6208 Rhun ap IorwerthTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Calls on the First Minister—in the absence of any intervention by the UK Government—to meet with the interim Chair of Tata Steel to improve the terms of the deal offered by the company’s UK division for steelworkers in Wales; and that such an amended proposal should consist of binding, written commitments on employment, investment and the protection of accrued pension rights.2. Calls on the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government, Unions and interested parties to prepare an alternative strategy in the event of the current proposal being rejected by the Welsh steel workforce.

Motion moved.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I rise to speak for steel once again in this Chamber—for steelworkers, for steel pensioners, for steel communities, for a sector that is the very foundational core of our economy. There are those who perhaps would prefer it if I were silent, but I’ve been told to shut up by Labour councillors ever since I was a boy in the miners welfare hall in Ammanford. And I didn’t take their advice then and I’m not going to start at this point either.And really, actually, it’s partly because of that boyhood experience then—going through the anguish as a family facing the tribulation of redundancy and unemployment and everything that that represented and, indeed, a stolen pension scheme, by the way—it’s for that reason that I think we cannot remain silent. I remember meeting for the first time John Benson and his colleagues from Allied Steel and Wire in the building next door, 15 years ago—people who had lost their job and their pension, and 15 years later, they’re still fighting—still fighting—for justice that was denied them. When I think about people like John, what he looks for, I think, and what working people look for in political leaders, is leadership, actually being a voice for the voiceless, saying the things that are unsaid, asking the unanswered questions, even when it’s uncomfortable, and also being there to articulate what they’re unable to speak openly themselves.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Adam Price AC: I would particularly like to thank those steelworkers, past and present, who have reached out to us to thank us for saying, on the record, what many of them privately feel. The question I think that is at the forefront of our minds at the moment in relation to Tata’s proposals is twofold: one, does it provide a sustainable, viable future for the steel industry in Wales going forward? And secondly, is it fair to all stakeholders, including, of course, steelworkers and steel pensioners? And we, certainly on these benches, have very real concerns, which I think are shared by many in the workforce, and it’s that that I will seek to address in my comments here this afternoon. I’ll cover the three main areas covered in the proposal—employment, investment and pension—and then say something about the deal overall and, crucially, what can be done. That’s the focus, really, surely, for us in the place: what can be done to improve this situation.Now, as far as employment is concerned, the proposal, as has been reported in the public domain—I’m reliant on that information, and the information that I’ve garnered in speaking to steelworkers myself—states that there is the commitment to seek to avoid redundancies over a five-year period. The problem, of course, is immediately apparent: ‘seek to avoid’ actually is no clear concrete commitment at all. I’ve written a few manifestos in my time—I know this kind of language. It’s not a bankable promise, unfortunately, as it currently stands.Now, the employment pact mechanism actually emerges from continental Europe—it’s been in place in Tata Steel in the Netherlands; in fact, it goes back to the days of Corus in 1999. It would be interesting to compare and contrast the new employment pact that has just recently been agreed for Tata Steel Netherlands for the next five-year period. But there are some detailed commitments there that have been reported, for example a 21-month retraining and redeployment right for all workers effected by restructuring. So, again, we see, certainly, a greater level of commitment in terms of the detail in that employment pact. The reason why the employment guarantee is crucial is because we know that there is an intention to move forward with a merger with ThyssenKrupp. Indeed, the chief executive officer of ThyssenKrupp, Heinrich Hiesinger, has said recently that those discussions are ongoing. And he is on the record as saying there’s only one reason, of course, for that merger, and that’s to take out capacity. What does capacity mean? That means jobs. Who is going to be on the front line of those cuts? Well, I’ll give you a clue: I don’t think it’s going to be ThyssenKrupp. I don’t think it’s going to be Tata Steel Netherlands. So, you can fill in the blanks. And, unfortunately, as currently constituted, that employment guarantee does not give us, and certainly doesn’t give the steelworkers, I think, the kind of confidence that they deserve. Similarly on the investment plan: £1 billion over a 10-year period—by the way, that actually really only allows us to maintain the current level of capital investment. That’s not a transformational level of investment. That just allows us to keep the steelworks going at the current rate of efficiency. But, again, it’s contingent, we’re told, upon gross profits, an EBITDA, of £200 million a year from Tata Steel UK—I’ll give way to the honourable Member.

David Rees AC: I thank the Member for giving way. Just for clarification purposes, the EBITDA actually is not gross profits—it’s operational costs profits, in the sense that it’s the net profits plus the interest, plus the taxation, plus the depreciation, plus amortisation. So, it’s not actually gross profit, is it?

Adam Price AC: Well, it’s operating profit. You could regard it as—. I mean, it doesn’t actually have a formal definition in that sense. But the point is, if that really is a hard contingency—that this investment plan is completely reliant upon that level of continual operating profit, in a context in which we know—. This is one of the most cyclical industries of all—. Let’s remember we’ve gone from a position where we were told at one point that Port Talbot was losing £1 million a day to a position now where it’s making a profit. And yet we have an investment plan that is contingent upon an annualised level of net earnings—call it what you will—it’s contingent upon a very, very exacting level of performance. I’m sure the honourable Member wouldn’t disagree with that. The investment plan should be based on a concrete commitment, because that’s the only long-term basis, actually, on which we can create the kind of framework of trust that is necessary on both sides to achieve the sustainable, successful future that we want to see. Are we saying, for example, that if they don’t meet that target, the investment doesn’t go in? You’re in a vicious circle then, aren’t you? Because if the investment goes in, you’re not going to make those targets in the second year as well.Let’s turn finally to the proposal on the pension. This I find most curious of all. I struggle to understand what really is driving this, because the formal consultation is about moving the remaining members of the British Steel pension scheme among the employees—it’s closed to new entrants already, of course—over to a defined contribution scheme. But it isn’t about lowering the cost of pension contributions to the current workforce, is it? Because it merely cuts Tata Steel’s contribution from 11.5 per cent of salary to 10 per cent, so it has a negligible effect on their costs. It isn’t even about closing the current pension deficit, because we’re told it’s fallen; in the last actuarial valuation, it’s down to £50 million. So, it’s not about that.So, what is it really about? Well, I think we’re forced to come to the conclusion what it’s really about is removing the charge that the British Steel pension scheme currently has over the IJmuiden plant, which Tata Steel, globally, have always seen as the jewel in the crown. That is a major impediment to their desire, of course, to move forward with the ThyssenKrupp merger that I have already referred to. That’s what, it seems to me, it is all about, to move forward with that plan, which is not necessarily, I would humbly suggest, in the interests of the Welsh and British steel industry. That charge—there’s no actuarial valuation that I can find in the British Steel pension fund documentation of that security that they have over the IJmuiden plant, but we’ve got a clue, I think, from the Government actuarial department analysis that said that if Tata Steel was to delink itself from the pension scheme so that it actually became, effectively, self-sufficient, you’d have to put about £3 billion or £4 billion in, not the couple of hundred million that has been reported in the press that Tata are offering in order to remove the connection with the pension fund.These are very real concerns. They can be addressed. This deal can be strengthened. The employment guarantee can be made a firm guarantee. The investment plan can be made a concrete commitment, and we can have a clear commitment that Tata, the conglomerate, a profitable conglomerate—it makes 12.5 per cent return on capital overall and it makes billions of pounds of profit—actually will not walk away from its liabilities to the pension fund. These are reasonable demands that I hope Tata, as it is currently consulting, will listen to so that we can have the kind of trust and the kind of confidence that is the sure platform that we all need to see for a viable, sustainable and fair future for the steel industry.

Thank you very much. I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendment 3 will be deselected. So, I’ll call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane HuttDelete all and replace with:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises the vital strategic importance of the steel industry to Wales and its economy.2. Welcomes the significant support made available by the Welsh Government to keep steel production and steel jobs at all the TATA sites in Wales. 3. Notes the recent negotiations between trade unions and TATA on pensions and recognises that any changes to the pensions scheme are a decision for the workers through a democratic ballot and should be free of political interference. 4. Urges TATA to explain clearly and in full detail to workers impacted the implications of the agreement that has been reached.5. Notes that the First Minister has led discussions with senior TATA management over recent months to ensure workers’ rights are protected and will continue those discussions in the coming weeks.6. Recognises that the Welsh Government will continue to do everything in its power to protect workers, their jobs and ensure a sustainable steel industry in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Ken Skates AC: Formally.

Formally. Thank you. I call on Caroline Jones to move amendment 2 tabled in her own name. Caroline.

Amendment 2 appeared on the agenda as follows.

Amendment 2—Caroline JonesDelete all and replace with:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Agrees with workers and unions from Tata’s Port Talbot steel plant that politicians should not be trying to influence workers over the proposed deal to keep the plant open.2. Believes it is vital that workers are given the time and the necessary information to arrive at an informed choice about the proposals.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. It is UKIP’s belief that we should not be debating this motion before us today. I will simply outline our position. On 16 February, workers at Port Talbot will make one of the most important decisions about the future of steel production in Wales. The unions have worked hard and negotiated the best possible outcome for employees. It is a decision that employees alone have to make, and we should not be trying to influence that process. Half a year ago, Tata employees were facing the prospect of losing their jobs. They are now being asked to make changes to their pension arrangements in exchange for significant reinvestment in the steelworks at Port Talbot—

Suzy Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Caroline Jones AC: Not at the moment, Suzy, thanks. We all want to see Port Talbot steelworks survive and thrive, but our job as politicians is not to dictate to workers what the best deal is for them. It doesn’t matter if anyone thinks it’s a good deal or a bad deal in our situation; the only opinions that count in this matter are those of the workforce and their families. They are negotiating on all of the information; they’re talking to their work mates; they’re talking for advice from the unions, and it’s not up to us to influence their decisions. Our job, as politicians, is to step back, allow the workers to make an informed choice on the information given and what is best for them and their families, and then to be ready to ensure that, whatever the outcome of the ballot, we do all that we can to secure the long-term future of steel production in Wales.I urge Plaid Cymru to stop trying to influence the opinions of the workforce and, instead, focus on trying to persuade the world to buy the best steel in the world, which is Welsh steel. They could start with their friends in Scotland, who decided to buy cheap Chinese steel for the Forth road bridge rather than top-quality Welsh steel.

Adam Price AC: Would the Member give way?

Caroline Jones AC: No. But then we all know that being a nationalist doesn’t practice always what they preach. They care about political expedience. I urge Members—

Adam Price AC: Seeing as you’re attacking me, would you give way?

Caroline Jones AC: No, thank you. I urge Members to reject Plaid Cymru’s motion today and support one of the amendments.UKIP, Welsh Labour and the Welsh Conservatives are united in the belief that we should not be interfering with a democratic consultation between Tata and its workforce. It is in this spirit—[Interruption.] It is in this spirit that I will not be—[Interruption.]

Yes, okay. Can we just listen?

Caroline Jones AC: It is in this spirit that I will not be proceeding with amendment 2, tabled in my name. Instead, UKIP will be supporting the amendment put forward by the Welsh Government, and I urge Members to do likewise.

Thank you. I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to move amendment 3, tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Amendment 3—Paul DaviesDelete all and replace with:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the First Minister’s comments on the deal offered to Tata Steel workers and its impact on the long-term future of the steel industry in Wales.2. Recognises the UK Government’s role in supporting the steel industry through the introduction of new public procurement rules and increased support with energy costs, saving the industry £400 million by the end of the current UK Parliament.3. Acknowledges that this is the only proposal currently available to the Tata Steel workforce and calls on the Welsh Government to be prepared to work with the UK Government, Unions and interested parties to develop an alternative strategy in the event of the current proposal being rejected.

Amendment 3 moved.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome the opportunity to move amendment 3 in the name of Paul Davies, in what is a very challenging time, to say the least at the moment, and a sensitive time as well. It was only this time last year that, obviously, this Chamber was reflecting on the news of the first tranche of announcements around redundancies at the Port Talbot site—and the other sites, obviously. Let’s not forget, it’s not just Port Talbot. There’s Trostre, there’s Llanwern, there’s Shotton in the north, many ancillary industries as well that depend on those sites to work, and many off-site sub-contractors who depend on those sites remaining open. It is with that in mind that, obviously, we have put forward the amendment today to today’s motion. I do think it is not right at all to say that the UK Government hasn’t been proactively working, along with the Welsh Government, along with the steel sector, to try and carve out a future for the steel industry here, not just in Wales but across the UK. The improvements made in public procurement, for example, the improvements over energy pricing, which will see £400 million returned to high energy users over the lifetime of this Parliament—

David Rees AC: Will you take an intervention?

Andrew RT Davies AC: Yes.

David Rees AC: I thank you for taking the intervention. Are you therefore disappointed, as I am, that the UK Government dawdled over the application to the EU for state aid in relation to the extension of the intensive energy industries? But are you also disappointed that the UK Government has actually rejected an application to come down to us to talk to Members in the cross-party group on steel on the issues and whether the UK Government is actually dealing with them? Because, from what I’m seeing, they’re doing nothing.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Well, I reject that rather bleak assessment. I appreciate why you’re making that assessment, David—

David Rees AC: It’s true.

Andrew RT Davies AC: [Continues.]—because, obviously, you represent Aberavon and you’re a Labour Member in this Assembly. But it is worth reflecting that the Secretary of State for Wales is the son of a former steelworker with, I think, some 30 years’ service at the Port Talbot site, and is very proud. Very proud. [Interruption.] Well, if the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs would like to intervene as well, I’ll gladly sit down and listen to her as well, but I doubt whether I’d learn much. But the issue being is that we do have a Secretary of State for Wales who ultimately is fighting on behalf of the steel community that he himself hails from. The Prime Minister—. Both Prime Ministers have worked—

Lee Waters rose—

Andrew RT Davies AC: I’ll take the intervention in a minute, Lee, but let me make a little progress, if I may. They are both working on this tirelessly with the Government to make sure that there is a future, as has been committed to by the UK Government, for the British steel industry, which is identified as integral to the manufacturing strategy and the industrial strategy that Theresa May has put at the heart of UK Government policy. I’ll take the intervention.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you very much for giving way. I hear what the Member says about the pride that Alun Cairns has in his steel-making heritage, but what has he delivered? When David Rees and John Griffiths and I met the chief exec of Tata Steel UK before Christmas, he was very clear: the Welsh Government had delivered, and had delivered practical help, and the UK Government so far have delivered nothing. His words, not mine.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Well, you keep talking about what the UK Government have delivered. I have highlighted the £400 million back to high energy users. I have talked about help and assistance from going to Europe and looking for tariffs to be placed on steel. But it’s not just as simple as placing tariffs on steel. You have to look at the whole strategy to make sure that another sector, such as airlines, for example, doesn’t get penalised as well. That has been part of a joined-up approach to making sure that the protection is put in place to stop the dumping of steel. There have been high-energy rebates put back into the steel sector, but I will make this point: I had this written question back from the First Minister only this week. I asked a relatively simple question after First Minister’s questions last week, because he was making the point that the Prime Minister does not seem to be doing anything. I made the point: Will the First Minister confirm how many meetings have been requested with Theresa May since her appointment as Prime Minister relating specifically to developments with the Tata Steel crisis in Wales?’The answer comes back:The future of steel making by Tata in Wales has been secured largely through partnership between the Welsh Government and the management and staff at Tata Steel. We have also, of course, worked with the UK Government.’I deduce from that: zero. I asked how many meetings he had requested. He hasn’t requested a single meeting—not a single meeting. That’s the First Minister of Wales. We had a joined-up, cross-party approach to actually supporting the steel sector here in Wales, and that worked very successfully, I would suggest, at the end of the last Assembly and at the beginning of this Assembly. We are at a very, very delicate time in the negotiations, and it is important that the workforce, as Caroline Jones highlighted, are allowed the space to debate, deliberate and actually digest the consequences of the deal that is on the table. I do not accept that it is not for us to debate and discuss this. I do believe that it is important for politicians because, ultimately, if the deal does not go through, politicians will be at the forefront of trying to work through an alternative or putting solutions in place. But it is wrong for politicians to actually scaremonger or put sensational stories out there. I am not saying I have seen that, I have to say; I haven’t seen that. But it can easily descend into that. The point that we need to reflect on here is that the steel-making industry has been a volatile industry for decades. It was only this time last year that it was correct to point out that the plant at Port Talbot was losing £1 million a day. Ultimately, the currency changes have actually made it a far more competitive environment to sell that steel on the world market. But unless we secure that investment from Tata Steel, which is a global conglomerate—and it is only global conglomerates that can put that type of money into operations at Port Talbot, Shotton, Trostre and Llanwern—we will have a very bleak future. So, I do hope the workforce are given the time and space to develop and debate the proposals before them and vote accordingly. I do hope the consensus that did exist both at this end of the M4 and at the other end of the M4 continues to develop the strategy to secure steel making here in the United Kingdom and that, above all, politicians do rise to the challenge as we go forward. Whatever the outcome of that deal, steel will remain a very volatile market as we go forward in the next decade.

Thank you very much. Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you. I have considered the arguments that some politicians have made, and others in the political sphere, that we should keep our noses out of this deal currently being offered by Tata to its workforce. I can see what they say, but then I was considering when it has ever been the case that politicians have not taken a view on such issues. Adam Price referred to miners’ pensions. ASW workers—Adam again mentioned John Benson, who was here in the Assembly today, lobbying people as they came in. Visteon, Tata. Politicians in Port Talbot were on the platform, if I recall, when we first had this debate over pensions, taking a view on the way forward. I think there is a moral obligation on us as politicians to lead in this regard, and to show that we have an opinion and a way forward. I am not saying that we should dictate to workers how they should vote, but I am saying that we need to be part of the discussion on how that process takes place. And I do believe—and I do firmly believe—that the trade unions have not taken on that responsibility. I am speaking to workers almost on a daily basis, who are saying, ‘I want them to tell me. I want them to take a view, so that I can have all the information to hand in a cohesive and constructive way. We go to the Tata Steel roadshows—that is good, the workforce needs to have that information from Tata Steel. But we need to therefore have guidance from the trade unions as to how we should vote’.I think it’s not taking the responsibility that they should be taking, and they’re not representing their workers as they should be doing so. David Rees.

David Rees AC: I thank the Member for allowing me an intervention. Do you accept the fact that—you talk about the roadshows—there are trade union representatives also at those roadshows, presenting information to the attendees as well? So, the trade unions are actually presenting information to members if they attend the roadshows as well.

Bethan Sayed AC: Yes, they are, but they’re not taking a view on this deal, and I think they should be taking a view. If they think that it’s the right deal to take, then they should be saying that, and I haven’t heard them going that far.Generally, I’ve found the steelworkers I’ve spoken to divided into two camps. It isn’t ageist to say that the older staff are more entrenched, more likely to vote ‘no’ to any proposal that closes the BSPS—and who can blame them? Since the 1980s, successive Governments have sought to redefine pensions as benefits. This painfully remains the case with former workers from ASW. Pensions are wages deferred—that is a fact. The workforce should have the right, then, to have that pension when they do retire.The company, I think, can count its lucky stars that it’s been given such an easy ride in the media. Those much-advertised losses, it transpires, were against plan—what the company hoped to earn—not real losses. We’ve also seen, as Adam mentioned earlier, the pension scheme deficit go up and down, like a pleasure cruiser on hurricane-lashed high seas. It’s been £2.5 billion, £2 billion, £700 million, £480 million, and, most recently, £50 million. And now I’m reading it’s heading back to £2 billion. The reasons given are many and varied, but here’s what I don’t understand: if Tata is so exercised about the BSPS, then why is it running into the arms of ThyssenKrupp, whose €9.7 billion pension fund was two thirds wholly underfunded six months ago? Maybe it will make the same kind of miraculous recovery we saw with the BSPS.The younger steelworkers, I know, are more concerned with how the commitments, not guarantees, will actually work out—whether they will have a working life in steel. To that end, there are all kinds of questions about the promised £1 billion investment. Again, this comes with strings attached. [Interruption.] I don’t have time, sorry, David.Reading between what Tata and the multi-union have said, not only will the current UK operation fund this investment, but it is dependent upon UK sites making twice that amount each year. The figure of £200 million a year is a target in the transformation plan that began with over 1,000 job losses at the start of this year. Although this proposal was examined and endorsed by consultants for the union, it remains a big ask in a global market where overcapacity and cheap imports remain abiding problems, regardless of energy cost reductions.I’ve mentioned the Tata roadshows, and I’ve mentioned the fact that many people still cannot make their minds up in relation to how they should go on this particular deal. I’ll finish with a quote that I’ve had from one of those steelworkers. He says, ‘I’ve given the works over 30 years of my working life. In that time, I’ve seen a lot of change, and a lot of good boys come and go. I remember British Steel, Corus, and now Tata. In that time, we’ve got better and better at making steel, smashing production records, one after the other, and the plant we’ve got gets older and older. I’m a steel man; I make steel. I like to think I’m good at it. I’d want my union to be good at looking out for me. I pay them for that; instead, silence. I’m going home and my wife is asking me, “Well, what does all this mean?”, and I don’t know. I’m clever enough to know that, when you smash production records and your employer responds by making job cuts and threatening closure, any deal he puts on the table needs a close look. All I want to know is: who will help us? We’re used to politicians ignoring us; now it seems our own trade unions are doing the same. We need their help.’

Lee Waters AC: Let us be clear what we’re facing here: we are facing economic blackmail by a multinational company playing off Governments and workers to try and minimise its costs and maximise its profits. I well remember the closure of Ebbw Vale, and the then chair of Corus, Brian Moffat, telling the House of Commons Welsh Select Committee that his company was in the business of making money, not making steel. The workers across Wales have been through a series of crises, and they have understandable anger. I’ve had numerous conversations on social media with workers from my constituency who work both in the Trostre works and in the Port Talbot steelworks. They tell story after story of having spent decades working seven shifts in a row, working shifts through weekends and bank holidays, nights, long days in stressful, physical environments—all on the promise that they could retire at 55 on a decent pension. After a horrendous year when they’ve faced the abyss, they now have to give up the pension rights that they’ve worked hard to secure. They’ve lost faith in their company. One of them put it very starkly to me: ‘We’re being asked to jump into a black hole, while they whisper, “We will catch you”.’The anger is real and understandable and there’s a very real risk that the vote will be lost. Tata need to listen to this. If they genuinely want this deal to go through, they need to consider what further concessions they can offer, especially to those steelworkers who are within 10 years of retirement, who pose the biggest threat, I believe, to the vote. But I do worry about political game-playing. It would be a calamity to the Welsh economy if Tata put its Welsh operations into receivership, and that is very clearly what they are threatening to do. Were that to happen, not only would the works go into administration, but the pensions would go into the pension protection fund, and the rights would go. They would lose not just the 10 per cent, but, as John Benson was successfully arguing today from the Allied Steel and Wire precedent, the amount of pension they’d end up getting is nearer 50 per cent. Compare this to where we were 10 months ago. We now do at least have some commitment. There is doubt about how sincere that commitment is. [Interruption.] Indeed.

Adam Price AC: Does he accept that there is a distinction here? Because, of course, Tata has a parent company and, uniquely in English and Welsh law, there is unlimited liability under the Pensions Act 2014. The pension regulator can actually go after Tata’s assets, whether they’re in Europe, India, or wherever across the world.

Lee Waters AC: You’re not going to find me defending Tata in this position, and I have no idea what arrangements Tata have put in place to deal with the eventuality of losing this vote. But they’re not daft and they are very clear in their view that, if they lose this vote, they will go. And then what do we do? This is why I think it is irresponsible to be urging the voters, to be playing on this understandable anger, urging them to vote ‘no’, because then where are we? The point that Adam Price made about the motivations behind this and the liabilities on the pension fund and the competition from the Dutch plant was a very persuasive argument, but the hard-headed fact remains that this is the deal we’ve got on the table—this is the best deal the trade unions could negotiate and it’s the only deal that Tata were willing to agree to, despite the pressure and the incentives offered by the Welsh Government. If it wasn’t for the £4 million investment on the table from the Welsh Government, there wouldn’t be a deal in the first place. And that £4 million comes with strings. We’ve done all that we can to pull it back from the brink and now the workforce must choose. But I do urge caution for those in this Chamber who are calling on the workers to reject it, because they will bear a heavy responsibility if the plants go under. Our only real power—this is where we do have a choice—is to avoid being in this position again. We need to lessen our dependence on large, foreign-owned multinationals. We need to embrace innovation and confront the fourth industrial revolution. It’s a sobering fact that the 7,000 jobs at stake in Tata pale into insignificance compared to the 700,000 jobs in Wales that are under threat from automation. That’s what we should be confronting here: looking ahead to get out of this short-term crisis and start planning for a future where we embrace the foundational economy and innovation. I hope that Tata workers vote to accept the package, not because I think it’s a watertight deal—I don’t—but because, until we craft a radical new economic strategy that’ll benefit workers across Wales, it’s the only deal we’ve got.

Dai Lloyd AC: It’s a pleasure to participate in this debate, and I do think that we should be having a debate, to address one of the points mentioned earlier. Everything is essentially political, whether we like it or not. I think everyone in this Chamber would agree that we want to see a steel industry succeeding here in Wales and prospering for many decades to come. We’ve seen the headlines, and I won’t rehearse the wonderful arguments put forward by Adam Price and Bethan Jenkins already. Of course, a number of possible solutions have also been aired over the past few months, and the role of the Government here in Wales has been discussed and what exactly we could do about the problem of Tata in Port Talbot. We’ve had the debates about business rates and the fundamental need to invest in skills, and, of course, the whole issue of public procurement.We must have a more broad-ranging strategy, and my intention, in the few minutes I have, is to look more broadly as to how we can provide a programme that can take us into the future. Because it’s very difficult for the Welsh Government, with all due respect, to have an influence on global markets, but I do think that the Welsh Government can take action to create a healthier market for steel here in Wales by having an industrial strategy with core elements focused on skills, and the need to develop skills, and that gets to grips with the whole issue of public procurement and how we go about public procurement, and, of course, also addresses the whole issue of infrastructure and the need to develop infrastructure, as a means of getting us out of the economic difficulties that we’re currently facing. We’ve had a number of debates already on a national infrastructure commission for Wales, the so-called NICW. And, of course, negotiations are ongoing and we hope to persuade the Government, but it’s still true that our NICW in Plaid Cymru isn’t the same as your NICW within Government. But there are signs that things may change, and of course things need to change. There is £40 billion-worth of infrastructure that is waiting to be built. We must release that potential using, of course, resources such as locally procured steel in order to help us achieve that infrastructure work. We had some exciting news about the Swansea bay tidal lagoon last week. Of course, there are some financial issues that are yet to be agreed at the other end of the M4, but there is huge excitement surrounding that project, and, of course, the infrastructure, the skills and the raw materials must come from somewhere, and that’s why we need to develop a comprehensive industrial strategy here in Wales, with steel as a core part of it. So, this debate this afternoon is extremely important. It’s very important that we are having this debate. I don’t think that there are any circumstances where we shouldn’t be having a debate when we have people in our constituencies who are put at risk directly by what is happening in terms of the future of their jobs and their pensions. Of course, we should be staging these debates, and we shouldn’t restrict our ability to express our views and our concerns on the basis of the experiences of those living within our constituencies. But also the Welsh Government needs to look more broadly and to work proactively to create an industrial strategy for Wales with steel at its heart. Thank you.

David Rees AC: Can I start my contribution by declaring that I’m a proud member of Unite, one of the unions that’s obviously represented in the steelworks, along with Community and GMB? I hope by now that Members in this Chamber will be aware of my passion for the steel industry, my belief in a strong, vibrant future, my respect for the steelworkers, and my total commitment to them, their families and my communities. The crisis in steel was abundantly clear over 18 months ago when SSI announced the closure of Redcar, and the UK Government actually started to wake up a little bit to the challenges facing one of our foundation industries. It’s only 12 months ago that the loss of over 1,000 jobs in Tata Steel UK was announced, and we started to see the impact of that crisis here in Wales—followed within months by an announcement to sell the Tata Steel UK operations. Since then, steelworkers and their families, particularly those in my home town, have gone through hell not knowing whether there would even be a steelworks remaining in the town and a job to go to.During this time, strong leadership to secure steel making in Wales has been given by both this Welsh Labour Government and the steel unions. I think it’s disgraceful the UK Government has not shown the same commitment to our steel industry. In fact, since the change of Prime Minister, since last summer, we have struggled to actually hear any reference to retaining a strong and vibrant steel industry from any member of Theresa May’s Government. That does need to change. They need to be more public with that support.The challenges facing our steel industry have not gone away. Yes, the drop in the pound has helped the sector improve its financial position, but long-term sustainability cannot be based upon the fluctuations, which are volatile, in exchange rates. In the EU and UK, the steel demand growth rate for 2016 was up 0.8 per cent and forecasts for 2017 are up 1.4 per cent. That’s still more than 20 per cent down on the demand figures for 2007. The OECD actually estimates the global overcapacity of steel as 700 million tonnes next year—400 million tonnes of which will be Chinese steel, by the way—and that global competition will continue to be challenging and dumping will still be a threat.When we add to this the likely impact of Brexit and the announcement yesterday that the UK will leave the single market—and this is particularly important as Tata actually exports three times as much to the EU-27 as it does to any other country—there is clearly still a long way to go to provide a secure and sustainable industry. We must continue to do what we can to deliver that.This Labour Government has already agreed over £16 million of investment to Tata to support skills training for the future workforce, and for work on redeveloping the power plant in Port Talbot as part of the £16 million identified as support for Welsh steel making—funding that is conditional upon a commitment from Tata of continuing with two blast furnaces at the heavy end of Port Talbot—and future investment. It has also indicated an ambition to establish a steel research centre in collaboration with Swansea University, thus looking to make Wales a centre of production of premium steel.The steel unions have worked tirelessly to reach agreements on the transformation plan, to challenge the UK and EU Governments and to secure investment and job security for the workforce. The current proposal being considered by the steelworkers is the culmination of tough and lengthy negotiations undertaken by the unions with that aim. They have been and will be there for their members, and for anyone to claim that they are doing their members a disservice is deplorable. Anyone making such comments, in my view, should withdraw them and apologise to the unions. Now is a time to show respect to steelworkers and allow them to seek out the full facts of this agreement on offer. I agree with my colleague from Llanelli; these proposals are not great, they’re not fantastic and there are serious challenges. My personal view: when the public sector issues were raised under the UK Government, I was totally in support of ensuring that anyone who was in a scheme was allowed to stay in that scheme—they bought into it, they should stay in it. I’m still of that view. I haven’t changed my mind. But in this case, I’m not going to express an opinion as to which way they should vote on this.It is important that we allow them to seek the full facts from a variety of sources—and I actually raised this with the CEO of Tata Steel UK: ‘Get independent advice for your workers and make sure that it is independent’—for them to weigh up the proposals and the possible outcomes, so whichever way they vote, it will be based upon their personal considerations and not on rumour or political manoeuvring.Llywydd, today’s motion is calling on the Welsh Government to intervene in this process, ignore those discussions and replace unions in any further negotiations with the company on an agreement for the workers. That’s what it says. I hope Plaid Cymru is not now saying that the unions should no longer have a role in reaching agreements with the company and put in offers to members by Governments instead.We all understand that the steel industry is a volatile and cyclical business. It’s extremely sensitive to fluctuations of the global economy.

Adam Price AC: Will the Member give way?

David Rees AC: I’ll give way, yes.

Adam Price AC: I’m grateful. We heard in the earlier debate, didn’t we, the importance of the social partnership model, which is tripartite—company, unions and Government. Surely, in the context of the steel industry, there is an absolutely central role for Government and, I agree, for Governments—plural; both Welsh and UK.

David Rees AC: I think the motion’s second point actually highlights that working together is important. The motion’s first point actually says the Government should replace the unions in the negotiations. So, it’s actually a separation—a mixture of the two. 2016 saw Brexit, Trump and an increasingly belligerent Russia. In 2017, we’re already seeing challenges with China and the trading world by Trump’s administration, which could have a greater impact upon Europe, and we wait to see what the knock-on effect of that will be on our steel industry. We have a long way to go. It’s uncertain and unstable. We need to create a sustainable industry. Governments and politicians must work with unions and steelworkers to achieve that. It is our job to work with them, as you quite rightly point out, in partnership, but not to dictate to them our views.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: As an Assembly Member for north Wales, of course, and as someone who lives in north-east Wales, it is important that we remember that this is about more than Port Talbot, as Members have already reminded us. There was a great deal of doom and gloom the last time I visited Shotton steelworkers last year. The cloud hanging over the entire Tata enterprise had extended even to one of the most consistently profitable and innovative plants where 700 workers produce, of course, cutting-edge materials and finished steel that is exported across the world. But, as has already been mentioned in the past in this Chamber, it is used in Wales as well extensively: the Millennium Stadium, the most iconic of our national buildings, of course, is coated with Shotton’s unique steel. Despite producing profits for the past decade, steelworkers in Shotton have not seen a pay rise for the past five years and despite the contribution they make to the company, many of them feel that a gun is being held to workers’ heads when it comes to pensions and that feeling, understandably, is particularly acute amongst those over 50, some of whom could, as we know, lose a significant amount if the pension deal goes through. This pension deal is based on a short-term promise. As we’ve heard, and as Adam reminded us, it’s not a bankable promise. We have no guarantees that Port Talbot won’t be under threat again in five years or even less and the workers in the meantime will be leaving with a poorer pension. Shotton had its meltdown moment in 1980, of course, when the biggest redundancy announcement in a single day in western Europe saw 6,500 steelworkers lose their job. The economic devastation that caused, of course, for Shotton, Deeside, the whole of Flintshire and beyond lasted for a generation and that mustn’t happen to Port Talbot: a community similarly built on steel and equally dependant. I am optimistic for the future of Shotton steelworks—somewhere that’s adapted and innovated since those dark days—and I’m equally hopeful that the deal we need to see and we all want to see the workforce obtain in terms of wages and deferred wage—pensions—will be the right one for a brighter future. But, of course, it won’t happen unless the Welsh and UK Governments are more tenacious in demanding that it happens.

Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to be able to once again speak up for steelworkers in my community at the Shotton site and, of course, across the country. On the issue of the British Steel pension scheme, from the conversations and correspondence I’ve had, there is concern that Tata isn’t providing the workforce with all the details they need at their disposal in order to make an informed decision on the implications for their future. I understand that the employer is actually answering—or not answering questions to be more accurate—employees with an inadequate ‘don’t know’. Another specific uncertainty and lack of clarity is on the mechanisms for the potential separation—the impact of benefits accrued and the resting place for the British Steel pension scheme. I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary will agree with me that Tata must address these concerns and answer the questions of their hard-working workforce across Wales and the UK. In addition, I am also acutely aware of the uncertainty and anxiety being created by the UK Government’s apparent lack of strategy and action with regard to our fundamental foundation industry of steel. It’s been magnified, from the employees I’ve been speaking to, in recent reports that the UK Government has apparently refused to guarantee that British steel will be used in the construction of high speed 2, HS2. I noticed the Welsh Conservative amendment that recognises the UK Government’s role in supporting the steel industry through the introduction of new procurement rules. I think we need this in practice, not just written in principle, and our steel industry—

Andrew RT Davies AC: Will you take an intervention? Do you not recognise that 95 per cent of all steel used on British railways is British steel and Chris Grayling has given a commitment to the House of Commons that he wants to see British steel used in HS2 but there are procurement procedures that have to be gone through?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I was going to go on to say that what we need now is not just one word: we need action without delay. Cabinet Secretary, I know the workforce and management at Shotton recognise the support and steps taken by the Welsh Government, but I’d ask you and colleagues and others here to join us to apply additional pressure to make sure that we take seriously the future of steel, that we commit to the use of steel procured in the UK and that we really do put the money where the mouth is to make sure we see our steel industry not only sustained and saved, but growing in the future.

Thank you. I call the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure—Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could I begin by thanking Members for their contributions today and for their continued interest in this significant subject? I’d also like to declare my membership of Unite the Union at this stage and suggest: at the outset, let’s just agree, everybody across this Chamber, that nobody should do or say anything to undermine the future of Welsh steel or steelworkers’ jobs. For those that depend on steel—Tata workers, their families, people in the supply chain and, of course, towns and villages around sites across Wales—the last 12 months have been nothing less horrendous, and it’s my belief that it’s our duty to bring hope and surety where there’s fear, not to sustain it by fuelling mistrust or by turning people against one another. I think it’s fair to say we’ve come a long way since last January. An enormous amount of work has been undertaken in that time by workers, by Welsh Government, by trade unions, by management at the plant, and by partners right across the sector, but we are not out of the woods yet. As the leader of the Conservative party said, this is still a sensitive period. However, thanks to the significant financial contributions by this Welsh Government and as a result of the turnaround plan that is being delivered at Port Talbot, in particular, there is hope once more. As soon as Tata announced planned redundancies, it was the Welsh Government, working with trade unions, that rallied partners together to support those affected. As soon as Tata announced their proposed sale of the UK operations, it was this Welsh Government that made an offer of £60 million of support for the company through a combination of loans and grants. And as part of that package before Christmas, I announced £4 million of investment in skills across Tata’s Wales operations, and a further £8 million towards the £18 million investment at Port Talbot’s power plant to enable more efficient operations, reduce energy costs and, of course, to cut emissions. In addition, I also announced proposals for a new research and development base in Swansea, because our focus has always been on ensuring a sustainable steel-making presence here in Wales. The investments that we’ve announced to date are designed to enable real efficiencies to be delivered right across the Welsh plants, and to help safeguard jobs into the future, irrespective of future ownership. Because, as Lee Waters rightly said, automation and competition are the biggest challenges that we face in the fourth industrial revolution. We must transform those challenges into opportunities through R&D and modernisation. In addition, a major element of any sustainable solution for steel in Wales was to solve the pension issue. That’s why I believe that the proposed agreement between Tata and the trade unions is a positive and significant step towards securing that sustainable future. It is important to remember, I believe, that the future of the British Steel pension scheme was an issue for all of those that expressed an interest in purchasing Tata’s operations in Wales. And whether or not workers accept the proposal that has been agreed is a decision for them to make. Members will be aware—

Suzy Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Ken Skates AC: [Continues.]—that pension matters are not devolved. However, in our—yes.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you. Just on that last point, really, there’s been quite a lot of talk today about what the role of Government is in terms of opinion and advising. From what I hear, you’ve made it clear that anything that the First Minister might have said here, for example, is merely opinion and is not advising. Is there a point, or has there been a point during your negotiations in putting the Welsh Government package together—which I don’t diminish, actually—where your advice has been sought rather than your opinion?

Ken Skates AC: First of all, the pensions issue is a non-devolved issue, and the First Minister and I have been absolutely clear that, in the absence of any other opportunity, option or discussion, this is the only offer that’s available. And the question will be for workers to decide whether to accept the deal that is being presented to them or to reject it and therefore throw the entire steel industry in Wales and beyond into doubt. This is a question that workers themselves need to answer and make judgment on.But I think it’s quite obvious, based on what Hannah Blythyn has said and what others have urged, that we have to make sure that—[Interruption.] Not at this point. We have to make sure that in the run-up to the ballot, Tata take full responsibility for providing valuable information to workers and ensure that they interact fully with the workforce, so that they can explain in detail the implications of the agreement that is being reached.

David Rees AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for giving way on this particular point. The importance, in the run-up to any ballot, is confidence.

Ken Skates AC: Yes.

David Rees AC: To date, the confidence in the workforce has been shattered—I’ve said this many times to the First Minister and you. Will you also join me, perhaps, in calling for the new chair of Tata Sons to make a public statement to try and start that rebuilding of confidence in what they say?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I would. This was something, again, that we discussed on Monday, the First Minister and I, with Bimlendra Jha, the chief executive of Tata Steel. I think it’s absolutely essential that trust is rebuilt—that it’s not diminished further, but that it is rebuilt. That’s essential, not just for the company—that is absolutely essential for workers, the unions and the communities that they inhabit. [Interruption.] Yes, I would.

Adam Price AC: It’s just a point of information, really. When he says that this is the only deal on the table, he’s aware, obviously, of the Excalibur bid, which, actually, the Welsh Government have funded—

Ken Skates AC: Indeed.

Adam Price AC: Is he saying that that is no longer a live bid?

Ken Skates AC: No, it’s my understanding that Excalibur are still proposing what they were offering last year. But even for Excalibur, the steel pensions issue was a live one and a very serious one that they would have to contend with. There is not one single party that was interested in the steel operation that did not admit that the steel issue was a major problem to overcome.I think it’s worth pointing out at this point that—. I’d like to repeat the pleas made by the trade unions that the ballot needs to be undertaken in a way that is free from political interference. Nobody can be in any doubt of the commitment of this Welsh Government in terms of securing a sustainable future for steel in Wales. Now, keeping jobs and production at all of the Tata Steel plants in Wales remains this Government’s No. 1 priority in terms of industry. And throughout this process, we’ve worked closely with Tata and responded swiftly to the changes over the past year, and we will continue to do so. We’ll work in this manner on an ongoing basis, but there are significant challenges ahead.Discussions around a potential joint venture with ThyssenKrupp are a commercial matter, but the Welsh Government will continue to take a very close interest in any future deal. As I’ve said, the support we have provided through Welsh Government is conditional and that conditionality will apply to any joint venture. Both the First Minister and I have said in our meeting with Tata this week that protecting workers’ rights is absolutely vital, and whatever the outcome of the ballot, our commitment to protecting those rights will continue.There’s been much said about the role of UK Government and it’s my belief that there is still time for the UK Government to make a very significant contribution. The ask that the First Minister has consistently made of the UK Government to put in place a package of support for energy-intensive industries remains valid, because energy prices are too high. And this, again, was reflected to us just this week.In the context of the hard-Brexit option that the Prime Minister outlined just this week, it’s even more important for our steel industry to be genuinely competitive, given that it will, very soon, sit outside the single market. We want to secure the long-term future for our steel industry and action on this is now imperative.Deputy Presiding Officer, whilst decisions regarding the future of the plants are not ours to make, I will continue to ensure that we fully engage with all parties to ensure that messages regarding jobs, investment and protection for workers are heard by Tata’s most senior representatives. But as Dai Rees, as Lee Waters and as others have said, this is no time for politicking, no time for grandstanding—

I’m sorry, I’ve allowed for you to have interventions as well, so can you—?

Ken Skates AC: And jobs, livelihoods and the fate of the communities need our support.

Thank you very much. I call on Adam Price to reply to the debate.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It has been, I think, a valuable debate. I know that steelworkers who have contacted us will have appreciated hearing the range of views, of opinions, in relation to the package of proposals that will shortly be put before them. I thought it was very, very indicative that the backbench Members who spoke who have steel plants in their constituency all expressed very serious concerns about the current proposals. And I think that justifies the need for us to have this debate, and to put pressure on Tata to come up with a better deal that meets these reasonable concerns that have been expressed in this Chamber today. I have to say to Caroline Jones, I disagree with almost everything she said, but she’s still a nice person. But I have to say in all seriousness, while of course, ultimately, this has to be a decision for steelworkers, we cannot, nevertheless, outsource our responsibility as the elected Parliament. If we don’t speak on something as important as this, what are we don’t to speak on? I have to say, while we won’t be supporting the Conservative amendment, I think I welcome the fact that Andrew R.T. Davies accepts the important role in having a debate on the future of the steel industry, and their amendment does importantly refer to the need for a contingency plan. Because if we accept that it is the worker’s right to reject this deal, then we, as an elected Parliament and the Government of the country, have to come up with an alternative proposal that responds to that new situation. I thank the Members on my side for their contributions—particularly, I’d like to pay tribute to Bethan Jenkins. Nobody has been closer to the steelworkers—going back over many, many years now—and, in fact, the reason that we have said what we have said in the public domain is because steelworkers have asked us to. We recognise that there’s a range of views among the workforce as well, but it’s important that those concerns were expressed publicly. I have to say—[Interruption.] I don’t have time, unfortunately. I think the important point is that Government now has a role, in the time that’s available, before the end of the month when these proposals are going to start to be voted on—we need Welsh Government in there saying to Tata, ‘Look, there’s a real prospect that this vote could be lost unless you meet these reasonable concerns.’ That’s why we need the Welsh Government to be in there in a leadership role, trying to actually respond to what we’ve heard today. I have to say to Lee Waters, he started off, and I was in agreement with him—this is an act of economic blackmail, and then he made the case for completely capitulating to it. There was a phrase for that—[Interruption.] I don’t have time, I’m afraid. There was a phrase for that—I don’t have time. There was a phrase for that: ‘There is no alternative’. It was a phrase we heard a lot in the 1980s. That is not the kind of politics that we should accept. There is an alternative. We heard from the Cabinet Secretary himself that there is another deal on the table from a company that is offering a 25 per cent stake to the workforce. They’re being invited in this deal to fund their own rescue package out of their own pension, well why not actually look at that other deal? There was another prospective buyer over the weekend that actually wrote directly to the British Steel Pension—[Interruption.]

The Member is not giving way.

Adam Price AC: [Continues.]—wanted to offer more money into the pension fund. [Interruption.]

Not giving way.

Adam Price AC: There is an alternative for Tata as well. They could strengthen the deal. Ratan Tata came out of retirement because he was appalled by the kind of slash and burn short-termism that Cyrus Mistry had injected into the company. His new leadership represents a return to Tata’s traditional values of fairness and long-termism, and I think now we should appeal to the interim, emeritus chair of Tata Steel at a global level. Let’s have that fairness. Let’s have that long-term approach. The steelworkers of Wales deserve nothing less.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

5. 5. Plaid Cymru Debate: National Grid Cables

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Jane Hutt.

We now move on to item 5, which is the Plaid Cymru debate on the National Grid cables, and I call on Simon Thomas to move the motion. Simon.

Motion NDM6209 Rhun ap IorwerthTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Believes that:a) the National Grid should use underground or undersea cables or alternatives to carry electricity through National Parks and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty in Wales where feasible;b) there should be a presumption in favour of underground cables or alternatives rather than electricity pylons in any new or current developments in Wales by the National Grid; andc) a feasibility study should be carried out of the possibility of removing current pylons and replacing them with underground cables or other alternatives.

Motion moved.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I’m delighted to open this debate, which, perhaps, doesn’t have any link to the previous debate, apart from the fact that pylons are made out of steel. While we still have pylons, let’s make them out of Welsh steel, certainly. But, really, this debate is more around our electricity future, and how we plan, long term, for an electricity future that strengthens our self-sufficiency. Renewable energy in particular in Wales strengthens the decentralisation of the electricity grid to provide room and scope for more community projects to come on board and deals with and addresses a sore issue, it has to be said—that of the visual impact of energy developments in Wales, and particularly the visual impact that is delivered by electricity pylons. Because we all accept that if we’re going to produce electricity in parts of Wales, then that power has to be transported to the places where people need to use that electricity. The fact is that the parts of Wales that are either richest in natural resources for the production of electricity, which tend to be the mountains and offshore, all those parts of Wales that have a history of energy generation, such as Wylfa in Anglesey, will need some form of transmitting that power. But, very often, the visual impact of electricity pylons can be extremely intrusive. Although, as I’ve dealt with this for 15 years, on and off, in different fora, I’m not blind to the way that people advocate or talk about energy production and pylons, and although I accept, on occasion, some of the opposition to pylons is actually a proxy for opposition to the actual project in the first place, I do think there’s a way of planning better here in Wales. I say that because I’ve seen it myself. I’ve seen alternatives. When I wrestled in a previous Assembly with the mid Wales generation projects—ones that, unfortunately, never got the go-ahead, in terms of renewable energy, due to the fact that the Liberal Democrat Minister jibbed out at the last minute in giving that go-ahead—. But one of the things that would’ve happened in mid Wales was a proliferation of pylons, and there was a lot of concern about the visual impact of those pylons. The concern about the pylons was wider than the concern about the windfarms, though there was concern about the windfarms as well, I accept that. In particular, there was concern that there could be a significant impact on areas that people perceived as being of great either historic or beauty value for themselves, but weren’t designated as such. You can have areas of outstanding natural beauty and we have national parks; there are rules within those contexts, but an area like Meifod in mid Wales is not an area of outstanding natural beauty by designation, but it’s a very historic area, and it’s a valley that people value. I certainly engaged both with the campaigners but also with National Grid to understand how they couldn’t actually bury the cables to go through Meifod, which was, in the end, an agreement that the National Grid did provide, though it’s not going ahead now, anyway, because don’t have the windfarms that are coming in. And as part of that, I was taken to see a project that the National Grid were running to bury cables in an area of outstanding natural beauty. Unfortunately, that wasn’t in Wales, because they weren’t burying any cables in Wales. I had to go to Herefordshire, I had to go to the Wye valley outside Wales and see it happening for myself.Now, burying cables is not without any impact at all. It’s quite messy and noisy, and is quite a scar across the landscape at the time. But those of us who’ve seen both cables and the gas pipeline, for example, from Pembrokeshire, buried over the years will know that, in time, the land does restitute itself and the cables are not to be seen, the pipelines are not to be seen and, in fact, you have a temporary blip on a landscape, if I can put it that way, rather than the more permanent blot on the landscape that pylons represent. So, the purpose of today’s debate is to try and get us to move away from some of the local arguments we have around pylons and have a national approach to this, and a national concept of where we want to take our energy production and our planning for that. Other countries are there already. Germany, last year—well, I say last year, but it was the end of 2015, so it’s a little more than that now—in the Bundestag, passed a power cable law to ensure that major power connections were built as underground cables, rather than overland cables. In Denmark, which I visited last October, there’s been a cross-party consensus for over a decade that major cables, which—in the motion we talked about the National Grid, because, obviously, the local cables are distributing companies’ responsibility and they are looked at differently. But major cables, the National Grid in this context, should be buried. That’s 3,200 km of 150 kV and 132 kV lines to be buried in Denmark as part of their planning for a renewable energy future. So, Denmark is doing all sorts of things, like banning diesel cars from Copenhagen and going to 100 per cent renewable electricity, but they’re burying the cables. They know that people will accept part of the picture. They will accept, perhaps, changes in their landscape that come as a result of a need to move to a more energy-efficient future, but they don’t just accept it at any price. They want to see those who are responsible for planning and producing electricity meeting with them half way. One of the ways we can do that is by ensuring that we have consistent policies across Wales, not just in our national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty, but across Wales, that respect people’s own appreciation of their landscape and allow them to approach that and to underground cables, in effect.Undergrounding does cost more, and there’s a range of costs—a range of costs that are often quoted at around seven times more. But in fact, when you factor in the fact that underground cables are not subject to severe weather, they are more reliable if you get it right. On getting it right, as I saw when I visited the undergrounding in the Wye valley, it’s extremely important that the engineering is spot on. It’s quite a technical and detailed process, but if you can get it spot on—if you get it right—then you have longevity, and you have a more robust system. All of us would want to see, particularly as we move perhaps to a more responsive energy grid where there will be less over-production—just in case 1 million people put on the kettle at the same time half way through the cup final, or whatever—to a more responsive grid that has local energy production, local distribution, and a national system, then we need to be spot on with our engineering, and that means that we need a much more robust grid that won’t topple over or won’t be affected by severe weather, and will be there and be reliable.So, when you factor in those factors, the cost of undergrounding goes to between two and five times more than simply putting a pile of pylons over landscape. I just think that’s one of the things that we have to face: that this may cost us more. But as part of developing a much more robust energy system, and one that can be ready for the developments of the future, whether it’s the tidal lagoon, which I want to see in Swansea bay, or developments in Anglesey, inland power or offshore developments with wind—or, even still, because we still have some potential for onshore development in wind—we want to see that undergrounded as much as possible. So, there’d be lower maintenance costs; lower transmission costs; less susceptibility to the impacts of severe weather; and a way of demonstrating to the people of Wales that we want to work with them, respecting their appreciation of their natural environment and working with them to ensure that energy future.I hope that this debate will allow us to elucidate. Certainly, Plaid Cymru Members want to talk about their own areas, want to talk about decentralising the grid, want to talk about renewable energy, and I hope that the Government’s amendments, which I note don’t go quite far enough—. But I hope that, at the end of this debate, we’ll at least have come to some kind of agreement, so that when we talk to Ofgem and when we undertake the long-term planning of where the capital investment has to be made by these energy companies, we’ll take that opportunity to ensure that it’s made in the name of the people of Wales and in the name of the long-term sustainability and resilience of our Welsh economy.

Thank you. I have selected the two amendments to the motion. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs to move formally amendments 1 and 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane HuttIn sub-point (b) delete ‘a presumption in favour of’ and replace with ‘a preference for’.

Amendment 2—Jane HuttIn sub-point (c) delete ‘a feasibility study should be carried out of the possibility of removing current pylons and replacing them’ and replace with ‘Ofgem should commit to continue and extend the Visual Impact Provision project for Wales to replace current pylons’.

Amendments 1 and 2 moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Formally.

Thank you very much. Sian Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Together with the Member of Parliament, Hywel Williams, I gave evidence on the first statutory consultation of the National Grid on the north Wales link, namely the scheme that would create a line of pylons across Arfon and Ynys Môn. In Arfon, specifically, we were calling for a tunnel under the Menai strait, instead of new pylons, because of the completely negative visual impact that would have in an area of outstanding natural beauty. We had concerns about the impact of pylons on the local area and the Snowdonia national park, which is adjacent. I’m very pleased that that campaign was successful, with a tunnel under the Menai strait as part of the scheme, to date, but of course that could yet change.During the last consultation, I stated that the small section, 1 km in length, of pylons on the main land in Arfon should be undergrounded. That continues to be part of the scheme on the table at present, and that also because of the visual impact from the national park. The national park is an essential asset for the economic and cultural well-being of the area, both now and in the future, and any development that could have a negative impact on people’s enjoyment of the views within the park could have a detrimental effect on the local economy, through tourism, and so on.Plaid Cymru, of course, believes that powers over the grid, in addition to full powers over energy projects under the planning regime, should be in the hands of the people of Wales. This is where we should be taking those decisions. Therefore, we would not have to be dependent on the goodwill of the National Grid with the matter of the tunnel under the Menai, for example. In the interim, we must look at how to alleviate these issues in a more realistic manner, perhaps. In the interim, we need to give consideration to the way in which decisions are taken. In processing projects, there has been a great deal of delay in the planning system. The planning authorities are responsible for ensuring that the visual impact of electricity transmission projects is mitigated, and the National Grid must consider the visual impact of various technologies and possible routes for the transmission of electricity in order to secure planning permission, and all of that takes time. Pylons do cause a great deal of bad feeling locally because of the detriment to the amenity, and this all causes a long delay in the planning system—on average, a delay of between eight and 10 years. If the undergrounding option was available from the very start, then this delay would not happen. A lot of attention is paid to the cost of undergrounding. In 2014, the Infrastructure Planning Commission said that underground cables are between 4.5 and 5.7 times more expensive than having traditional pylons. That sounds like a large sum. But, when you look at the cost of maintenance, electricity loss, the ‘Downton’ effect and the fact, as I said, that planning decisions can take so long, when you take all of this into consideration, the figure is reduced to between twice and five times more expensive. Nobody is arguing that undergrounding, at present, isn’t more expensive, but that could change, of course, as the technology improves. Even then, it is less than 2 per cent of the production cost. That is of comparatively little significance when compared to the negative impact of pylons, which would be of great importance to the local economy.

David Melding AC: I welcome this debate on a very important subject, actually. The spread of electricity supply in the 1920s and 1930s liberated many from much drudgery, but it did mark our landscape and rather transformed it in an ugly way. Whereas the romantic poets saw Wales as one of the great areas of the sublime and beautiful, we now all too often have to look at what would be wonderful views if it wasn’t for the fact that these huge pylons march across them in many areas. So, I do think that this is something that is really worthy of consideration as alternatives now present themselves. I do note—and Simon Thomas did refer to it briefly—that the National Grid itself has currently a plan to remove the bulkiest pylons from beauty spots around the UK, and Snowdonia and the Brecon Beacons are included in that programme. It is set to cost £500 million in the first phase, which may sound a lot, but actually, you don’t get to bury that much with that sort of investment. But, at least, it is a sign that they realise that things are changing in response to public demand, but also a greater desire to see the landscape restored. I note that the debate in Anglesey has been particularly heated. I think that that is a sign of things to come, frankly, because people will ask quite fundamental questions: ‘If we have got to put up with the power plant, why do we have the least attractive way of then transmitting that power?’ Isn’t it part of the deal you do with the local economy that you try to help them as much as possible? The costs are not inconsiderable. As a rough rule of thumb, it costs twice as much to bury a cable as to have it overhead. But I do think it is the alternative that should always be considered.There are general advantages also that go beyond the obvious benefits to the landscape. Buried cables are more resilient of severe weather conditions. My researcher here has got in brackets ‘apart from earthquakes’; well, I’m not going to include those. It’s a natural phenomenon, so perhaps we should be mindful of that, but fortunately we don’t suffer from very strong earthquakes in Wales. There’s less of a hazard: the safety for people, wildlife and aircraft from burying cables is considerable. Also, they don’t need as much land, believe it or not, despite the fact they’re buried, as—[Interruption.] No, they don’t. If you bury a cable you need half as much land as you do for the overhead cables. So, there are many advantages. There are disadvantages, the cost being the obvious one, but they’re also more difficult to repair and maintain, so we need to bear that in mind. However, I do think that does not take away from the general argument in favour of burying cables whenever possible, and certainly implementing a programme to bury cables wherever feasible in areas of great natural beauty.Where we have overhead cables, I think when they’re replaced we should be looking at less intrusive versions. I am glad that the so-called T-pylon is now being tested. That’s a lot slimmer and also shorter than traditional pylons, so that may be a way, where we have to use overhead pylons, of letting them blend in a bit more, anyway, to the landscape.Can I say that we will support the motion? Should we get to the amendments, we will support the amendments as well. The visual impact provision programme, I think, should be continued. We need to look at how we can plan this sort of programme of work, because it is a big investment. It will take time, but I’m glad we’re discussing it this afternoon. It’s a very worthy thing, and I’m sure future generations will thank us if we make this a particular priority now.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thanks to the contributors so far. Anglesey and its representatives are unanimously against the National Grid’s plan to put a line of pylons across the island. I, the county council, the MP, the community councils and thousands of residents have been consistent in our opposition to the grid’s plans, and there have been hardly any positive responses from the grid to that chorus of voices. Quite simply, they’re going for the cheapest option. Yes, they’ve tried to give the impression that they’ve compromised a little by agreeing to put cables in a tunnel under the Menai, but the truth is that they never intended to seek consent for another line of cables across the Menai, which, of course, is an area of outstanding natural beauty. But, did they have an option other than pylons across the island? The answer, quite simply, is, ‘Yes, of course.’ Undersea and underground links are quite common. I recall, in my very first meeting with grid officials back in 2013, that those officials told me, ‘Well, of course we can put cables under the sea; it will be a technical challenge, but of course it can be done.’ However, since then, the idea hasn’t really been considered in earnest, as it should have been, with technical arguments put forward time and time again, and that is despite the undersea links that are developed in other parts of Britain. It’s very difficult for laypeople such as myself to make a strong case against the grid’s technical arguments, but I am still convinced that this is an option that could work.What if we accept that the technical challenge of linking a nuclear power station by underground cables is too great a challenge? Well, there is nothing new in undergrounding technology, and there is adequate evidence that it is a more efficient technology in terms of energy loss from the grid, and its resilience in poor weather, as we’ve heard. Yes, it leaves a scarred landscape temporarily and, yes, it is more expensive, and it is cost that is at the heart of the grid’s proposals on Anglesey. Pylons are the cheapest option. The short-term cost to the grid is lower than other options—some £400 million is the additional cost, according to the grid, of undergrounding. But what of the cost of pylons to the people of Anglesey and the impact on the value of their properties and their businesses, and on tourism, never mind the impact on quality of life? Rather than putting the financial burden on the people of Anglesey—

Mark Isherwood AC: Will you give way?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: [Continues.]—the cost should—Fe wnaf mewn eiliad.[Continues.]—be borne by all energy users. I’ve seen estimates that the cost of undergrounding would be less than 1p a week for every electricity user in Britain over the lifespan of that link. That’s the truth. Fe ildiaf.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. As you know, we both attended a ‘no to pylons’ meeting on Anglesey in December 2015, but do you share my concern that, although the National Grid told me that they’re paid whether they put pylons over or under ground but Ofgem require best value for the customer, the One Voice Wales Anglesey pylon committee, who’ve written to Members on their response to the National Grid consultation, say the grid has declared, since 2012, that the pylon option has been chosen on the basis of cost alone, and that the pylon option brings only negative impacts to the sustainability of small and medium-sized businesses and tourism and agriculture on the island?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: You’re certainly right, I agree, and Ofgem is key. I’ll come on to some of the deliberations that I have had with Ofgem in a minute. It’s crucial that we move, as we’re hopefully going to be doing in the Assembly today, to a situation where there is an assumption in favour, through Ofgem allowing that, of undergrounding. I’ll go on.Mae cost ychwanegol tanddaearu, wrth gwrs, yn rhywbeth y mae’r grid ei hunan yn gwybod bod yn rhaid iddo ei dalu efo datblygiadau mewn rhai llefydd. Rydym ni wedi clywed yn barod am y datblygiadau sy’n digwydd mewn parciau cenedlaethol. Nid yw Ynys Môn yn barc cenedlaethol—nid oes gennym ni gwarchodaeth deddfwriaeth parc cenedlaethol. Ond i ardal lle mae twristiaeth yn fwy pwysig nag yn unrhyw ran arall o’r Deyrnas Unedig fel cyfran o GDP, wrth gwrs, mae’n harddwch naturiol ni mor bwysig ag ydyw mewn unrhyw barc cenedlaethol.Mi drafodais i’r mater efo Ofgem cyn y Nadolig. Mi gytunon nhw i fynnu bod y grid rŵan yn gosod allan yn llawer cliriach sut maen nhw wedi cynnal eu hasesiad o impact gweledol. Mae Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru hefyd, yn eu hymateb i ymgynghoriad y grid, wedi nodi’n gryf eu bod nhw’n credu nad oes asesiadau impact gweledol digon trylwyr wedi cael eu cynnal ym Môn. Y gwir amdani, wrth reswm, ydy nad oes modd dianc oddi wrth y casgliad bod impact gweledol gosod peilonau yn mynd i fod yn fwy nag impact unrhyw fodd arall o drosglwyddo trydan.Dyna pam mae Denmarc a’r Almaen yn ddiweddar wedi penderfynu mai tanddaearu fydd y norm, a Denmarc yn gwario, rydw i’n meddwl, dros £2 biliwn yn ychwanegol ar danddaearu ceblau sydd yna’n bresennol. Mae Ofgem hefyd eisoes wedi cytuno i gais gen i i edrych ar y mater yma, a dechrau ystyried a ddylai hyn fod yn norm drwy Brydain gyfan hefyd.Heddiw, mi ydym ni’n gofyn i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ddweud ein bod ni’n credu mai dyma ddylai’r norm fod yng Nghymru, ar gyfer prosiect cyswllt y gogledd ar draws Ynys Môn a’r tir mawr, a phob prosiect arall. Cefnogwch y cynnig fel y mae o.

Michelle Brown AC: Plaid have a point: buried cables would be better for the landscape than pylons, but it seems that Plaid are content to see energy prices for local people go through the roof, forgetting that not everyone earns as much as the Assembly Members who get to make the decisions. In the real world, many people are having a difficult time making ends meet and we ought to be doing all we can to ensure that they can power their homes, keep warm in the winter, and cook their food using a reliable source of energy that is as cheap as possible. Even the cheapest buried-cable option is around five times the cost of an overhead equivalent and, when faults occur, they are out of service for 25 times longer than cables on pylons. [Interruption.] No.Rural life would be massively impacted by such long repair times. Cabling is not without damage to the landscape. Construction poses more of a risk to archaeological sites, particularly as yet undiscovered ones, underground joint bays lined with concrete have to be built every 500m to 1,000m to join together individual lengths of cable, and, where a cable has to come out of the ground for geological reasons, compounds have to be built that are possibly more visually intrusive than pylons. The disruption to local people, tourists, and the environment would be huge during construction and could harm the local tourist economy. So, burying the cables is not the panacea Plaid would have us believe. ‘Even so, it will still look a lot better’, Plaid will say, and they’re right. But they don’t have to bear the cost: every bill payer in Wales will, of whom Plaid AMs are only 11, and will possibly be even fewer by the times any cables are laid. Two hundred and ninety-one thousand Welsh households—that’s 23 per cent—are already living in fuel poverty. What do the 11 Plaid AMs, who can afford to pay higher energy bills, say to the 291,000 Welsh households that struggle to pay their current bills—’Try not to think about the cold, but enjoy the view instead’? They’ll trot out some tired old line about needing to do it to preserve tourism. Well, I don’t believe visitors coming from towns and cities to enjoy our landscape will be put off by the odd pylon or other overhead line, particularly if it means their hotel room remains competitively priced and there is still a vibrant local tourism infrastructure that has not gone bust due to energy costs.With the huge cost and maintenance time implications it is difficult to see how this is anything but a cynical ploy to grab a few headlines by a party that knows it can quite literally promise the earth, because the people are never going to put it into a position where it has to deliver. UKIP are making a very rational and sensible approach. [Interruption.] I thought you’d like that. UKIP are taking a very rational and sensible approach to decision making in Wales, while Plaid are promising everything without working out where the money is going to come from. Well, the electorate are bright sparks who realise that this cable-burying plan will be a shocking, shocking, waste of money. Thank you.

Nathan Gill AC: I should probably declare an interest here: I live on Anglesey. So, the reality is, as you drive across the Britannia bridge, the very first thing that you see if you look to the right is the beauty of the Menai straits and the most gorgeous views you can imagine. But, as you’re driving across the bridge, to your left there’s a huge pylon, which then continues all the way up to Wylfa. Now, I agree with everything that Simon Thomas has said in his opening statement and, indeed, with Rhun ap Iorwerth. You mentioned that often opposition to pylons is a proxy opposition to the project itself. That is not the case on Anglesey. [Interruption.] I’m just saying that the people of Anglesey are wholeheartedly, on the whole, for Wylfa Newydd. [Interruption.] On the whole, yes, they are, Rhun. I’ve knocked on as many doors as you’ve knocked on on Anglesey, maybe even more, and, quite frankly, people know that we need jobs on the island. But we do not want the jobs at the cost of pylons. As far as I can see, Anglesey is an area of outstanding natural beauty. Now, as you said, we’re not a national park, so we don’t have the protection that that would give us, but, without a doubt, anybody who’s been there will admit Anglesey is an area of outstanding natural beauty, and the biggest employer on the island is tourism. Tourism, basically, makes up for—[Interruption.] Well, there’s still Wylfa, just about, but tourism makes up a huge amount of the employment opportunities for our young people and for many of the people on the island, through B&Bs and all the rest of it. People do not want to see pylons, without a doubt. If you come on holiday to such a beautiful island the last thing you want are these big, ugly pylons. There’s a total opposition to any new pylons across the island and this has been backed by One Voice Wales, which is a forum that represents 38 town and community councils on Anglesey. I’m not sure of any other time that all the democratically elected representatives living on Anglesey—so, we’ve got the MEP, the MP, two AMs, we’ve got the county councillors, community councillors, town councillors—were all in complete agreement on a particular matter, and that is that we oppose pylons being built on the island. [Interruption.] She doesn’t live on the island.The National Grid operates as a monopoly on behalf of the Government and the grid has been highly irresponsible in ignoring the views of those elected and those who are going to be affected. I urge the National Assembly to support this motion. I will be voting against the amendments as I believe that these try to water down this motion. I believe strongly that, in Wales, all National Grid cabling should be underground—both new projects and existing power lines. Quite frankly, if it’s good enough for Denmark, it’s good enough for Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I do think the fact that there is a visual impact assessment available now from the National Grid, in partnership with Ofgem, does highlight the fact that an important principle has been accepted. That is, the relevant authorities do now accept that these pylons do have an impact. Perhaps you could argue as to the extent of that impact, but the fact that that provision is in place does mean that a principle has been accepted in that regard. Of course, although the focus in this debate has been on undergrounding, the motion states clearly ‘or other alternatives’. Undergrounding isn’t the only option in certain circumstances; we could look at—. Well, we’ve heard references to alternative pylons, the T pylons, for example, which are being used now. You can look at changing the routes, you can rationalise the lines that exist in certain situations, too, and, of course, you can look at introducing comprehensive programmes to screen much of the infrastructure—the substations, and so on. So, we shouldn’t think that undergrounding and all the costs attached to that—and it is expensive, we accept that—is the only option. But, although it is expensive, as we’ve also heard, the maintenance costs are lower, the transmission losses are lower, there is less risk of damage in terms of weather, and so on, less visual impact, of course, and it would be more palatable to the public, which would make it more likely that some specific projects would be supported, as we’ve already heard during the course of this debate.But it does tell me something that we are where we are on the journey. It tells me where we are on this journey of moving from old energy to new energy, if you like, that we have to have this debate, and that we are still talking about the National Grid in its current form. Because I’ve said on a number of occasions in this Assembly that it’s about time that we moved away from the hub and spoke model that we currently have of energy generation, that is, that energy is generated in large central points—the hub—and then transferred inefficiently, certainly in terms of energy loss in transferring it along a grid that is aged, inefficient, as I’ve said, costly to maintain, and so on. We need to move to a far more flexible, more modern, and smart model—some kind of series of local grids, a sort of spider’s web of a grid, instead of the hub and spoke model that we now have, where the energy, of course, is used far more closely to where it’s generated, or is generated far more closely to where it is used. Now, such networks would be more efficient, as I say, and would offer more resilience, where you don’t face a situation where, if one major energy centre fails for some reason, half the country is without power, that it is far more resilient in that sense and is less intrusive in terms of the landscape, and cheaper in terms of maintenance costs. I still don’t feel that this Government has moved decisively enough in that direction in terms of its policies and investments. We need to look in earnest at the future of new energy. We want to see a more dispersed energy system across the nation.We are calling for more powers for Wales, of course, so that we can control the network. We need operational and legislative powers to allow us to have more control over these local distribution networks and the grid more generally in Wales. Those aren’t my words, by the way, but a direct quote from a cross-party report of the Environment and Sustainability Committee of the previous Assembly, ‘A Smarter Energy Future for Wales’. And, as I said, the Government needs to move more swiftly and to take action on the recommendations in that report in order to start this process of building the better energy future that we want to see. It is about time that we moved away from old energy, and, as somebody said, new energy needs to do to old energy what mobile phones have done to the phone kiosk. But, in the meantime, of course, there’s far more that we could do to mitigate the impact of these cables and pylons, and I would encourage you all to support the motion.

Neil Hamilton AC: This has been a very interesting debate, and I was particularly interested in what Llyr Gruffydd has just said about a hub-and-spoke method of electricity distribution. I’ve got a great deal of sympathy with the Plaid Cymru motion, although I think my friend Michelle Brown also had some important things to say in her contribution to the debate—points that are often, perhaps, ignored.I do wonder what the benefit will be overall of burying electricity cables underground if we then pepper the countryside through which they go with endless windfarms. So, why aren’t we debating today burying windmills underground, as well? I ask ironically. So, I do think that there is a fundamental contradiction in Plaid Cymru policy, because travelling through—

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: One of the points raised by Simon Thomas was that it’s the agglomeration effect that they’ve taken into account in Denmark in saying, ‘Right. Let’s underground a lot of these cables because of the need for investment in renewables’.

Neil Hamilton AC: Denmark is, of course, a much smaller country than the United Kingdom—

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: And Wales?

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, not smaller than Wales, but the landscape is very different in Denmark from what it is in Wales and they’re surrounded by a good deal more water, proportionately, than we are in Wales. Denmark has enormous agglomerations of windmills in the sea, whereas we have, relatively speaking, fewer. There are 88,000 pylons throughout the United Kingdom. I don’t know what the figure is for Wales, but in my view, they are a blot on the landscape. Some man-made structures, like the Menai bridge, are an addition to the landscape, and the poets and writers of the early nineteenth century, alluded to by old uncle David here, of course, regarded them as part of the sublime and the beautiful. But I don’t think anybody’s ever written a poem about a pylon as yet. I do think that we have to face the reality that if we are going to operate in a world of artificially increased electricity prices, this is going to have very significant adverse effects on the country. We’ve adopted a policy commitment enshrined in law—the only country in the world to do so—of cutting our carbon dioxide emissions by 80 per cent by 2050. Now, this implies that, by 2030—only 13 years away now—we will end cooking and heating by gas, which will mean we’ll be consuming more electricity, and therefore, we’ll need even more powerlines in order to distribute it; and 60 per cent of cars will be electric by then, which will require even more electricity. Quite how we’re going to achieve this, considering that fossil fuels currently generate more than half our electricity, I don’t know. The total cost of this in terms of subsidies and carbon taxes between 2014 and 2020 alone is £90 billion—that’s equivalent to £3,500 per household in the United Kingdom. Michelle Brown referred to the impact that fuel prices have upon the incomes of those who are at the lower end of the income scale. I think that this is a very important element that we should consider. In Wales, there are 291,000 households in fuel poverty—that’s 23 per cent of the total—and meanwhile, the subsidies that are paid for these renewable energy projects are going into the hands, very often, of rich landowners like David Cameron’s father-in-law who earns £1,000 a day from it. So, whilst I broadly support the aims of the Plaid Cymru motion, I do believe that the exercise would be almost pointless in the era that we live in of artificially increased energy prices to fund renewable projects, which are themselves perhaps an even bigger blot on the landscape than the pylons that are sought to be replaced.

I call the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to thank Plaid Cymru for bringing this topic forward for debate today and Members for their respective contributions. I’m sure that Members will understand that I am limited in what I can say about particular projects or proposals, given my statutory role under town and country planning and the marine licence regimes.Last month in this Chamber, I indicated my energy priorities in my energy statement, and I think I certainly made clear that I want to move away from ‘old energy’, as Llyr Gruffydd referred to. I’m now ensuring that our priorities are shared with the UK Government, Ofgem, the National Grid and others in making our grid infrastructure fit for purpose. The consenting of new high voltage grid infrastructure is the responsibility of the UK Secretary of State, but of course the Welsh Government is a statutory party to the consenting process, and we take a close interest in the management and development of the infrastructure, given its wider impact on our communities and on our wider economy. As a country, we need a robust, fit-for-purpose grid that enables our low carbon energy objectives to be delivered. However, it does need to be delivered in a way that is not to the detriment of the surrounding environment. In particular, we fully recognise the importance of our national parks and our areas of outstanding natural beauty. They are of equal status in terms of landscape and scenic beauty. Both must be afforded the highest status of protection from inappropriate developments, and our national planning policy reiterates objectives to conserve and enhance the natural beauty of these areas. Reflecting this, our national policy for large-scale renewable wind energy projects, as set out in TAN 8, seeks to limit new large-scale onshore windfarms to the seven strategic search areas, deliberately avoiding national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty. We expect National Grid to take a similar approach when identifying routes for new overhead power lines to avoid these areas, and to appropriately mitigate the impact of new grid connections on these areas if they are proposed in the vicinity. Our preferred position on new grid infrastructure more generally is one of undergrounding; that’s absolutely the position we start from. Without prejudice to this position, we are continuing our engagement with the National Grid to mitigate the visual impact of any potential new transmission lines, and ensure the most appropriate technology is used for the environment and communities in which it’s to be deployed. We recognise a balanced view must be taken against costs, which could render otherwise good projects financially unviable. Sian Gwenllian, I think, mentioned—and I do apologise if I personally translated it wrong—the cost of underground on the north Wales project was only 2 per cent more, but my understanding is it’s significantly more than that. But, of course, many factors have to be considered when you look at the cost of undergrounding. It depends on the geology of where it is, the amount of power it has to carry, the length of the cables, and the method of installation. The First Minister recently met with National Grid’s chief executive, and re-emphasised the need for a balanced and sensitive approach to major grid development. In relation to the north Wales connection project across Anglesey, as part of the development consent order process, National Grid’s pre-application consultation closed on 16 December 2016. Welsh Government provided a formal response to National Grid, in which we set out our preferred approach for undergrounding, and we welcomed National Grid’s commitment in the pre-application consultation documents to keep the option of utilising the third crossing under review as proposals progress. In relation to mid Wales, National Grid’s mid Wales project is now under review due to the UK Government’s decisions relating to onshore wind projects, to which the grid was due to connect.I accept the development of the National Grid has not always sufficiently recognised the importance of our landscapes, and in recognition of this, Ofgem, as part of a price control, introduced a new policy for the transmission owner to reduce the visual impact of pre-existing infrastructure in national parks and AONBs. The price controls and incentives include an allowance of £500 million to mitigate the visual impact of existing electricity infrastructure, and we welcome the inclusion of the section of line near Porthmadog as part of this project. We will continue our discussions with Ofgem for the potential future funding of projects in Wales in relation to the visual impact provisions, as we believe there is potential to reduce the impact of other existing transmission lines in Wales. So, to conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, the Government supports the principles of the motion proposed, where feasible. We will continue our discussions with both National Grid and Ofgem to ensure the most appropriate technology is deployed, and we will continue impress the importance of reducing the impact of existing transmission in our most cherished landscapes.

Thank you very much. I call on Simon Thomas to reply to the debate.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to reply to the debate and thank everyone who’s participated in it. It’s true to say that this is a debate that literally effects every constituency, because everyone has pylons crossing their constituency, and everyone has pylons where perhaps they wouldn’t want to see those pylons.May I start with the Minister’s response to the debate? I am pleased to hear that the Welsh Government is far more involved with Ofgem now on these plans, and with National Grid, on the need to make preparations, because the motion and Plaid Cymru accept that we can’t move to an improved situation overnight. This is something that we have to prepare for now as we renew and develop anew and to ensure that, where appropriate, as the motion says, we underground and, as Rhun ap Iorwerth reminded us, that we also need to undersea the cables, where necessary, for our future. Therefore I am pleased that the Government is now far more involved than they were in the past with National Grid and Ofgem. Having said that, I do think that the Government amendments are a little weak. We will certainly be rejecting those, at first sight, but we do want to work with Government where possible in order to be able to promote the interests of Wales, particularly with the National Grid and Ofgem. The debate itself has acknowledged certain successes, and Sian Gwenllian mentioned the campaign to ensure that the cables are included in a tunnel under the Menai or on the third bridge—perhaps the timing isn’t quite right there, but we certainly want to ensure that the beauty of the Menai strait is treasured, maintained and respected. Nathan Gill referred to that point, and I recognise his contribution in supporting this motion. Unusually for a backbench debate, we had three members of UKIP—not three members of the UKIP group, but three members of UKIP—expressing different views. It’s good to see freedom of expression within a party, but I would suggest that, perhaps, we need some more concept of where you want to take energy in Wales and economic policy in Wales, rather than having three different opinions on something that is so important. Whilst we’re discussing that, I don’t think I heard a sadder argument made at all than Michelle Brown’s case made for moving forward here—the cheapest option possible. Well, that would allow the Aberthaw power station to overproduce gasses that are responsible for the deaths of 67 people every year in Wales. That’s the sort of attitude that led to smog in London in the 1950s, and 2,000 miles of smog now across the cities of China. I don’t accept that sort of future for Wales and I am seeking a far more prosperous and healthy future for all the residents of Wales. So, the ‘cheapest possible’ debate isn’t going to hold water here. We need energy that is reliable—

Andrew R.T. Davies rose—

Simon Thomas AC: In a second, yes. We need energy that is reliable, that is under Welsh control and is as cheap as people can afford, but also cheap enough that it can’t be disrupted by future changes.Fe ilidaf.

Andrew RT Davies AC: As someone who lives very close to the Aberthaw power station and has visited the management on many occasions there, do you not recognise that a huge amount of investment has gone in to control emissions from that power station and there is a solution there? Working with Natural Resources Wales, that solution can extend the lifespan of a critical part of the energy infrastructure in Wales. Do you not accept that it would be a real tragedy is that plant did shut and it would be a loss to that local community?

Simon Thomas AC: What I do accept is that his Government has said the plant must shut by 2025, and that’s his Government’s decision—nothing that I’ve said in this Chamber.I droi’n ôl at y ddadl rydym ni’n ei chynnal yn fan hyn, sef ar beilonau, diolch i Rhun, a oedd yn ei gwneud yn glir iawn—ac mae pob un Aelod wedi derbyn yr ohebiaeth gan gyngor sir Fôn hefyd sydd yn rhoi—. Rydw i’n meddwl mai’r pwynt fan hyn sydd yn hollbwysig yw bod pobl yn gallu croesawu datblygiad ynni yn eu hardal, boed hynny’n ddatblygiad ynni mwy ‘controversial’ a dadleugar fel ynni niwclear, neu ddatblygiad ynni gwynt neu ddatblygiad o fath gwahanol fel morlyn bae Abertawe. Ond beth nad ydyn nhw eisiau ei weld yw eu bod yn cael eu trin fel eu bod nhw’n derbyn popeth, fel eu bod nhw’n rholio drosodd ac yn dangos eu boliau i’r cwmnïau ac i’r Grid Cenedlaethol. Mae angen parch ar gymunedau. Mae angen parch ar gymunedau sir Fôn. Dyna beth mae Rhun wedi ei wneud yn ei ymgyrchoedd e, a dyna beth rydym ni’n ceisio ei wneud yng nghyd-destun y ddadl yma hefyd.Mae Llyr, wrth gwrs—ac rydw i am ichi gofio un peth o’r ddadl yma, sef y syniad yma o grid gwe pry copyn—dyna roedd e’n ei galw hi, ond gwe corryn y byddwn i’n ei ddweud—sydd yn ddarlun gwell o lawer, rydw i’n meddwl, sydd hefyd yn golygu, wrth gwrs, y bydd, o bosibl, llai o’r ceblau trymion yma i’w gweld yn y tirwedd, gan y byddwn ni’n ailedrych ar sut rydym ni’n gallu rhoi’r grid mwy cynaliadwy a mwy tymor hir yna at ei gilydd. Yn syml iawn, os ydyw’n ddigon da i Ardal y Llynnoedd yn Lloegr, fel bod pob cebl yn cael ei danddaearu, mae’n ddigon da i nifer o ardaloedd yng Nghymru sydd mewn parc cenedlaethol neu ardal o harddwch eithriadol, neu nifer o ardaloedd yr ŷm ni, fel Cymry, yn meddwl sydd yn bwysig i ni—o ran harddwch neu dreftadaeth hanesyddol. Rwy’n edrych ymlaen yn fawr iawn at adroddiad Dafydd Elis-Thomas, sydd ddim yma heddiw, ond rwy’n sôn amdano fe. Mae ei adroddiad yntau wedi cael ei gomisiynu gan y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â thirwedd, i gael rhyw gysondeb rhwng y ffordd yr ŷm ni’n trin parciau cenedlaethol, ardaloedd o harddwch naturiol a’r ardaloedd sydd yn bwysig i bobl leol hefyd. Rwy’n edrych ymlaen at yr adroddiad hwnnw. Mae angen ei weld e, Weinidog, os caf i ddweud hynny wrthych chi. Rwy’n edrych ymlaen at ei weld, achos mae hwnnw’n rhan o’r darlun yr ŷm ni eisiau ei weld yn y fan hyn.Wrth gloi, a gaf i ddiolch i David Melding am ddod â darn o farddoniaeth ysbrydoledig ac am feddwl yn nhermau’r ‘sublime’, fel yr oedd yn ei ddweud, gan gofio, wrth gwrs, fod pobl wedi darganfod yng Nghymru ramantiaeth am y tro cyntaf?It’s not usual, therefore, to conclude an Assembly debate with a poem, but I shall do so, since David Melding was so kind to mention poetry. Because I was immediately reminded of Stephen Spender’s poem, ‘The Pylons’. So, I shall read out from that poem—not the whole poem. I shall just give a little flavour from Stephen Spender’s poem on pylons:The secret of these hills was stone, and cottages / Of that stone made, / And crumbling roads / That turned on sudden hidden villages. Now over these small hills, they have built the concrete / That trails black wire; / Pylons, those pillars / Bare like nude giant girls that have no secret.’

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Bin Collections

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rhun and amendment 2 in the name of Jane Hutt. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Symudwn yn awr at eitem 6 ar yr agenda, sef Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar gasgliadau bin, a galwaf ar Janet Finch-Saunders i gynnig y cynnig.

Motion NDM6205 Paul DaviesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes concern at the three- and four-weekly bin collections proposed by some local authorities across Wales.2. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure councils collect residual waste no less frequently than fortnightly, to protect public health, and deter fly-tipping.

Motion moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m just trying to think whether I can find a nice poem about bins, but there we are. [Laughter.]Last September, and much against the wishes of my constituents, Conwy County Borough Council halved bin collections from fortnightly to monthly in some wards. Thousands of residents since have taken to signing online petitions and have taken to Facebook, on an almost daily basis, to voice their anger and their frustration. Those with young children, worrying about nappy disposal, referring now to their ‘stinking bins’. Others struggling to dispose of pet waste are also having to leave this in bins now for about a month. A resident explains of numerous journeys now to the nearest waste disposal site, just to keep up with the amount of rubbish they are now collecting. Another resident says,It’s a crazy situation. I’ve ended up burning things on our open fire to save space in the black bin. It’s not fair. They’ve reduced our collections to every month. Even three weeks would have been bad enough.’The threat to our public and the environmental health impact of this policy is already obvious. Another constituent:It’s a real struggle now, with the monthly bin collections, and during the summer it’s going to get a whole lot worse.’

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: In reducing bin collections, my authority, though, now allows cherry-picking as to what items the company operating the local recycling and waste disposal centre will accept, often turning people away, with simply nowhere to dispose of their residual waste. Introducing the four-weekly scheme in Conwy, the cabinet member boasts of having surveyed and consulted with residents. Yes, they did consult—11,000 people responding, showing that, already, there was a 99.6 per cent recycling rate, 39 per cent finding their wheelie bin full or overflowing within two weeks, and 60 per cent stating they wouldn’t cope with a three-weekly or four-weekly collection. This was ignored. So, I ask: how can anyone justify the reasons to halve the number of bin collections and then claim that people have been consulted? Now, this at a time when incidents of fly-tipping in the borough have increased, growing annually since 2013. At the time, raising council tax by an inflation-busting 5 per cent in 2016-17—one of the highest in the UK—’How is that fair?’, you might ask.We are calling today to protect waste-collection services and to pledge that a Welsh Conservative-led council would ensure that residual waste is collected at least fortnightly. Yes, Assembly Members, we would reinstate fortnightly bin collections. We will work to deter and prosecute those guilty—[Interruption.] Yes.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: This does recall Eric Pickles’s joyous attempt to actually take it back to weekly bin collections, which bit the dust ignominiously. Can I ask whether she has consulted, in framing this motion, with any organisations at all who are involved in recycling and reducing the amount of waste? Or has she consulted with any local authorities who, in Wales, have driven down the recycling level, and if not in Wales, then perhaps with the Somerset partnership, which involves five local authorities, Conservative local authorities—

This is an intervention, not a speech.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: [Continues.]—who have moved to three weeks? Has she consulted with them?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I can assure the Member that I have very much consulted on this, as has my colleague Darren Millar. We will work to deter and prosecute those guilty of fly-tipping. Gwynedd and Blaenau Gwent have seen a 30 per cent increase in spend on tackling their fly-tipping problems, all as a result of reducing the frequency of collection services. Fly-tipping incidents of small van loads have risen by 2,854 occurrences in just two years. Make no mistake, we would enforce strict penalties on those found guilty of discarding their household waste, rubbish and furniture in our countryside and in our towns. In a fair and just society, why should the majority of law-abiding citizens have to suffer by the selfish actions of some and the inadequate provision by their own local authority? Across Wales, a broad policy of introducing new recycling receptacles has cost taxpayers millions. And such inconsistent policy has seen receptacles broken or going missing over inclement weather, adding a further cost burden to council tax payers.If we are working towards a zero-waste nation, we need to look at this, though, at both ends of the argument. We must get to grips with those manufacturers who choose to seduce us with their packaging, rather than the quality of the product. As a consumer, I do not want to see bananas wrapped in plastic or my eggs in Styrofoam. The over-production of packaging is a problem that we, as a law-making institution, should be getting to grips with, and I would welcome any legislation on this. Our constituents are paying for its production and are paying for its disposal, and it is simply not fair. There is too much plastic in our lives, and there is too much plastic taking lives. Just look at our marine environment. Look at our rural areas and our countryside. Welsh Government now needs to be thinking more effectively in the interests of their householders, their residents and local authority taxpayers. This Government needs to provide sensible guidance for our local authorities. Llywydd, penalising our residents is not the answer in terms of our bin collections. We should and we must be looking at far more long-term sustainable solutions for our waste disposal.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Simon Thomas to move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap IorwerthDelete all and replace with:1. Notes the three- and four-weekly bin collections proposed by some local authorities across Wales.2. Notes the Welsh Government’s target from Towards Zero Waste that all sectors in Wales will be recycling at least 70 per cent of their waste by 2025.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to enable people to increase the amount of waste they recycle through banning Styrofoam packaging.4. Calls on the Welsh Government to enable people to increase the amount of waste they recycle through introducing a plastic, glass and can deposit scheme.

Amendment 1 moved.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. And I do move the motion, and I am trying to pick out the gems from the opening speech of this debate. It’s January. We have local elections in May. I think we’re going to have lot more of this. [Interruption.] Let’s all prepare ourselves. I’m sure that Plaid Cymru will bring forward a debate on our local elections at some stage as well. But I think that it does seem to be that this debate is very much targeted on Conwy and certain issues in north Wales. [Interruption.] But, you know, there is a target—[Interruption.] Let me get started, at least. [Laughter.] Hang on, hang on. There is a reasonable—towards the end of Janet Finch-Saunders’s speech, we got somewhere. If we are looking at a genuine attempt to reduce packaging in our lives, a genuine attempt to not just get rid of Styrofoam but actually ban it, and if we are looking at a genuine attempt to get more people to recycle, so we aim at that national aim that we have within Wales of a zero-waste nation, and a particular target of 70 per cent, which the Welsh Government has—

Plenary was suspended at 17:09.

The Assembly reconvened at 17:41, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

Therefore, we will recommence. Apologies to everyone for that unexpected break. Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. So, the lesson of that is never debate the national grid in the National Assembly. [Laughter.]Let’s get back to the debate and I think the point that I was trying to make was one to emphasise that, in fact, there is no evidence. There might be anecdotal evidence, but there is no actual evidence of a link between different rates of recycling collection, black bags and so forth and any kind of public hygiene problem or any kind of infestation of any sort. The fact is that every local authority in Wales collects compostable rubbish—that’s the food waste that would attract pests—weekly. There’s been no change over the years to the fact that that kind of rubbish is collected weekly. So, there is no evidence, actually—

Suzy Davies AC: Sorry to intervene, but, actually, that’s not true in Swansea—it’s fortnightly. [Interruption.] Apologies, I got that wrong. Ignore me.

Simon Thomas AC: I believe that, in fact, in Swansea, where my mother lives, it’s a weekly compost food collection. My mother puts it out every week, anyway—perhaps that’s the problem. [Laughter.] [Interruption.] But, no, let me come to that point. All the other authorities have various times for recycling bags, plastic bags. I live in Cardiff and Ceredigion now, so I know the difference between the two. It is confusing, I accept, but it’s a local choice. This is what is at the heart of this debate. If the Conservative Party are unhappy with what their local authority is doing, vote them out in May, and vote in a party that will take recycling seriously, like Plaid Cymru. Other parties may be available, who knows? [Laughter.]But at its heart, this debate aims at completely the wrong target. There are a few Conservatives there who will know in their hearts that this debate is aiming at completely the wrong target. The target is reducing waste in the first place, dealing with packaging, dealing with items like Styrofoam, bringing in the potential for a deposit-return scheme in Wales, so that glass and plastic is not just used once, and then waits to be recycled—even if it is recycled, that’s quite a wasteful process—but is reused. Reuse is the key here. Towards the end of her remarks, Janet Finch-Saunders, I do remember, before the lights went out, said—I got that right, didn’t I? Yes. [Interruption.] She said she would support legislation that did these things, that addressed the packaging. So, I’m really delighted at that because my bid for a private Member’s backbench Bill is precisely that piece of legislation. So, I now look forward, if I’m successful in the ballot, to her support for that legislation.So, I think we’ve all exhausted ourselves waiting for the rest of this debate, so I’ll conclude just with this, and by saying that—[Interruption.] There’s no need to be too thankful for that. [Laughter.] Just to say that there are amazing examples, both inside Wales and outside Wales, of where other nations and countries and cities have dealt with recycling and waste in an effective way. What they’ve had to do is bring the population with them, and what we’ve done on the whole in Wales is bring people with us. When we were in recess, Dai Lloyd told me that when he first suggested in Swansea that they went from a weekly to a fortnightly black bag collection, there was uproar. But now people, certainly those I know, accept this as part of their contribution, and they see the benefits. They see the waste they throw out go down every week and they see the waste that they know is going to recycling, and employing people in that, by the way, being reused. I think on the whole we’ve got people behind us. If we hadn’t got people in Wales behind us, we wouldn’t have become the fourth most successful nation in the European Union, if we were an independent nation, in that context.So, let’s look at good practice elsewhere, let’s look at good practice within Wales and let’s bring up those authorities in Wales that are very reluctant to improve their recycling rates. But, if you couch it in terms of a debate about when black bags and bins are collected, you’re going to mislead people, you’re missing the target and, in fact, you’re putting people off from joining us in the very real battle that we have, to recycle more, reuse and use less.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs to formally move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 2—Jane HuttDelete all and replace with:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes Wales’ success in reaching 60 per cent recycling in 2015/16 and achieving the highest recycling rate in the UK and the 4th highest rate in Europe.2. Accepts the autonomy of local authorities, in the spirit of localism, in deciding how often to collect residual waste whilst recognising that less frequent waste collections do not lead to increased fly tipping or constitute public health risks.

Amendment 2 moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Formally.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think it’s a very interesting debate and I would praise Conwy council for its exemplary doorstep recycling, which I think is the way forward for all our local authorities. So, I think it’s really disappointing that one of the local councillors, who also happens to be an Assembly Member, is decrying the move made by Conwy council, because I think they’re doing absolutely everything that we should be asking of local authorities.As the amendment proposed by Jane Hutt says, less frequent waste collections—[Interruption.]

You can seek to intervene on the Member, if you wish.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Can I just intervene quickly? Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: If it’s a factual point, yes.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I was very proud to be a member of Conwy County Borough Council and its cabinet, but I’m no longer a member of Conwy County Borough Council.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. I apologise for that mistake.As the amendment says, less frequent waste collections do not lead to increased fly-tipping or constitute public health risks. There’s absolutely no evidence of that. Nevertheless, it’s one of the issues that always gets raised whenever anybody suggests that we might reduce the amount of collections of residual waste. Because if people are recycling properly, then the amount of residual waste is absolutely tiny and it’s perfectly possible to wait and collect that on a three or four-weekly basis.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: A tiny, further intervention—

Jenny Rathbone AC: I haven’t taken a further intervention.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: A tiny intervention—

Jenny Rathbone AC: No, I have not taken a further intervention.We have to be proud of our record in Wales as the best in the UK and the fourth best in Europe on recycling. So, in order to stay focused on achieving our target of at least 70 per cent by 2025, we have got to observe the three Rs. In case anybody isn’t aware of what the three Rs are, they are reduce, reuse and recycle.There is no such thing as throwing away. There is a cost to disposing of waste, whatever method is used. So, our first obligation has to be to reduce the amount of waste that we have, whether that is the shocking amount of food waste—one third of all food is thrown away before it even reaches the table. And as Suzy Davies said, in the context of increasing food poverty and the record number of admissions to hospital in Abertawe Bro Morgannwg for malnutrition, this is a really sobering context in which we need to discuss the need to reduce food waste. I applaud the work that the Government is doing, employing WRAP and really educating people on how we absolutely should not be wasting food.So, number two, we also obviously need to have conversations with the packaging industry to ensure that they are reducing the amount of waste that they generate that’s unnecessary.In terms of reusing, the Plaid amendment talks about banning Styrofoam packaging, and I agree. Tomorrow, I have a meeting with one of the high-street coffee-shop companies and I commend the work that they have done to encourage their customers to bring their own containers, using a 25 per cent reduction in the cost of a cup of coffee to get customers to change their behaviour. It’s a really effective way of people bringing their own cup, getting the cup of coffee and then obviously reusing it. I absolutely agree that Styrofoam cups and, indeed, plastic-coated paper cups are absolutely abominable because neither of them can be recyclable just by definition. So, we absolutely have to bear down on that.We absolutely have to think of new ways in which we can reduce waste. For example, I’d like to see a deposit-and-return scheme on all drinks so we don’t have to waste public and community resources on picking up the litter that is generated by cans and bottles. We also need to ensure that new products are available that can be made of recyclable materials, and I commend the work of the BEACON project, based at Bangor University, to find new recyclable packaging for everyday products like egg boxes. But, focusing on the motion, we know that 50 per cent of what is in most household residual waste could be recycled. It’s just that households are just not catching up with their obligations as citizens to do the right thing. Where they don’t do the right thing, we need to bear down on them, and I pay tribute to the work that Cardiff council is doing to ensure that people are adhering to the waste collection system that’s in place: they are being prosecuted for littering, they are being prosecuted for fly-tipping, and 1,600 fixed penalties were issued in the last 12 months. So, I think that this is a completely misfocused motion, and I’ll be very pleased to vote against it and instead support the Labour amendment.

Gareth Bennett AC: We in UKIP support today’s Conservative motion. We are also concerned at the public health implications of reducing rubbish collections, and we acknowledge a likely connection between reducing collections and seeing a consequent increase in fly-tipping. There has been a drive by councils across Wales in recent years to reduce collections in order to meet Welsh Government recycling targets. We do acknowledge that, statistically, the Welsh Government has performed well in terms of recycling rates, but we would ask: at what cost? Here in Cardiff, there have been several changes to the rubbish collections in recent years. Currently, there is a black bag collection every fortnight and one is limited to how many bags one can put out. However, the reduction, even from a weekly to a fortnightly collection, has been accompanied by fairly sizable anecdotal evidence of increased fly-tipping. This has been a major feature of the letters page in the ‘South Wales Echo’, and a recurring feature at that, with readers sending in considerable photographic evidence of fly-tipping in their area. This led to the council having to introduce a ‘Let’s clean up the streets’ campaign at the end of last year. So, what does the available factual data reveal about fly-tipping in Cardiff? In 2015-16, Cardiff recorded the largest increase in fly-tipping incidents of any council in Wales. Across Wales as a whole, fly-tipping increased by 14 per cent during this period, when many councils changed their collection policies to comply with recycling targets. Surely this indicates a causal link between reducing rubbish collections and increasing fly-tipping, but both Labour and Plaid Cymru in their amendments today seem to deny this link. This seems to be flying in the face of the evidence.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Will you take an intervention?

Gareth Bennett AC: Yes.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Is it possible that the increasing amount of prosecutions is because of an increased enthusiasm for ensuring that we don’t have waste littering our streets?

Gareth Bennett AC: I will accept the possibility. Will you also accept that there’s a possibility that it could be because of reduced rubbish collections?

Jenny Rathbone AC: Evidence, evidence. Where’s the evidence?

Gareth Bennett AC: Ultimately, we may be in danger of patting ourselves on the back for meeting recycling targets whilst ignoring the increasing piles of rubbish dumped in fields and back alleys. Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and some other towns are seeing more and more residents moving into small housing units like flats, or into shared accommodation like houses in multiple occupation. Many occupants of these kinds of premises simply don’t have room in which to store multiple bags of different kinds of waste, so we have to bear this reality in mind when we think about waste collection. There is also the economic reality of councils having to juggle their budgets. At the same time as Cardiff has reduced rubbish collections, it has also closed one of the city’s four recycling centres and shortly proposes to close another. The same kind of financial dilemmas will also confront other councils who may make similar decisions. This is where grand and laudable hopes of meeting targets will clash with hard financial reality.I think that a fortnightly waste collection is the bare minimum that councils should be providing, and I would urge the local government Minister to at least consider providing councils with guidance to this effect. I don’t think this is an abrogation of the principle of localism; I think it’s a sensible defence of public health.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I thank everyone for taking part in the debate today. Members will have heard me say on many occasions that the frequency of residual waste collections is a matter for individual local authorities, and this allows them to take into account local needs and reflect local priorities. We know that the Conservative Party is keen on localism and autonomy in local government, but in common with their party in Westminster, and in particular Eric Pickles, they seem, for some reason, to believe that localism shouldn’t apply to the collection of waste.Increasing recycling rates and reducing residual waste are not just important because of EU targets, although, of course, that’s what the ‘Daily Mail’ would want us all to believe. Increasing recycling rates is important because it reduces our carbon emissions. It saves our councils money through reduced costs of disposal and it’s hugely important for a successful circular economy. Simon Thomas is absolutely right: the people of Wales have embraced this so much so that, as he said, we are fourth in the world now in relation to our waste collection, and first in the UK.Evidence from the development of waste services by local authorities over the last decade shows the benefit of restricting residual waste to increase recycling. And it also shows how local authorities have been able to reduce the costs of disposal. All local authorities in Wales have restricted their residual waste collections in some way. Fortnightly residual waste collection is now the norm and we’ve seen dramatic increases in levels of recycling as a result. Fifteen of our 22 local authorities have made additional changes, for example, by further reducing collection frequency or bin size.However, we know that more than half of the waste in the black bag can be recycled, and if just half of that were recycled, Wales would then exceed 70 per cent recycling. Welsh Government is supporting WRAP, the WLGA and local authorities across Wales on activities to move us closer towards that 70 per cent target, which we’ve now set for 2025. That support includes: helping councils move towards the blueprint model; investing in improved recycling facilities; further reductions to bin sizes; focusing on the recycling of non-household waste; targeting the small numbers of people who are still not recycling at all; and further reductions to residual waste collections.We are aware of no evidence linking changes in residual waste collection frequencies to either increased fly-tipping or to impacts on public health. And I should tell Gareth Bennett that incidents of fly-tipping in Wales have reduced by 25 per cent since 2010, despite all of our authorities, as I say, operating some form of residual waste restriction.With regard to the public health aspects of reduced residual collections in Wales, 99 per cent of households are able to access weekly food waste collections across all Welsh council areas. Some also offer separate collection of other products, such as nappies and incontinence pads. This means that many of the odours historically found in black bin waste are removed. Research shows that when food waste is removed from residual waste, there is little risk of flies or gull and rodent predation.We’re currently looking at how we might discourage the use of single-use food and drink containers—and I, too, am meeting someone tomorrow, Jenny Rathbone, from a well-known drinks company in the UK—and that includes coffee cups and polystyrene takeaway containers. We’re also considering our approach to deposit-return schemes, and it’s premature to decide on these issues before the work that I’ve commissioned is completed.As we said, Wales currently leads the way in the UK in recycling. Simon Thomas mentioned good practice and I have to say, when I attended the British-Irish Council meeting in Guernsey on waste—I think it was in November—the other countries were looking to here, to Wales, to see what we were doing to make sure they could embrace our best practice. But of course we aim to be the first, and Wales, I believe, is a world leader in this field, which is something I think we should all be proud of in this Chamber. The people of Wales have risen to the challenge of increasing recycling rates and we are confident of their ability to recycle more. Diolch.

I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and thank you to everyone who has taken part in this debate, although, I have to say, I’m very disappointed that the Welsh Government are refusing to step in to prevent local authorities in Wales taking further this experiment, which is being trialled, of four-weekly bin collections around the country. And let’s face it, the reason that you can’t find any evidence of public health harm is because no-one else is doing it. There’s a trial on at the moment, and I can tell you that local residents in my own constituency are absolutely furious with the result—.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Will you taken an intervention?

Darren Millar AC: I’ll happily take the intervention.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Conwy County Borough Council has told me that the trial is going very well. If you can provide evidence against that, you tell me.

Darren Millar AC: I’m sure that they will have their rose-tinted spectacles on in terms of the way that the trial is going. But let me tell you this: in terms of the evidence—[Interruption.] In terms of the evidence, local residents are extremely dissatisfied with their waste collection services. They’re extremely unpopular indeed. In fact, in terms of fly-tipping, in terms of litter, they have never seen so much fly-tipping and so much litter at the roadside across my own constituency. Just a two-mile stretch of road, in the week after Christmas, between Kinmel Bay and Abergele had nine separate incidents of fly-tipping on that one stretch of road. Pet waste: you didn’t refer to pet waste at all in your contribution or response, Minister, and yet the fact is that there is a biohazard from pet waste going into bins that are left for four weeks. Now, it may well be that there’s more work to be done in terms of food waste, I accept that: some people are irresponsibly disposing of food waste in their bins when councils have the opportunity to collect that at the kerb side. But that is not taking place in some places, and, in particular with pet waste, there is a biohazard that is not being fully considered and isn’t being considered anywhere in Wales as far as I can see. In terms of clinical waste as well, the one big problem that we have in Conwy now is that the local authority is collecting clinical waste separately—incontinence products and other medical dressings, et cetera—but, unfortunately, it’s in a receptacle that is identifiable by people, which highlights the fact that vulnerable individuals are living in those properties. That’s unacceptable. It’s also not very nice for those individuals to have that highlighted to their neighbours. With nappies, there are nappy collections taking place from households where there are young children, but what if you’re a carer for a young child, a grandparent who regularly looks after a child? You’re not entitled to have a nappy receptacle, even if you’re caring for that person full time while your son or daughter is going to work. Other people have highlighted the need to do more on recycling. I agree with them. There are all sorts of things that we can be doing, but four-weekly bin collections is not the way forward and you’re not going to keep the Welsh public onside in terms of them participating in recycling simply by axing bin collections. If you think that further bin cuts are the way to promote more recycling, then why not scrap all bin collections altogether to force people to recycle? Because that’s where your logic leads you, I’m afraid. So, at the end of the day, we need to do everything we can to promote recycling, and we can certainly do things in terms of reducing the size of bins to promote people’s responsible behaviour, but four-weekly bin collections certainly isn’t the way. If I could just say one more thing: when you are in Government, trying to promote recycling, you have to invest in it. In Conwy, they’ve seen a £185,000 cut in the environment grant for next year as a direct result of your Government’s investment strategy. You’re not going to promote recycling by not investing in the local authorities that are doing their job well, and I want to pay tribute to Conwy for its current recycling rate. But this isn’t a way to take the public with you. If you want to take the public with you, you’ve got to work with them and you’ve got to provide decent services. Cutting their bin collections isn’t the right way forward.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Small Business Financial Support

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendment 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

The next item is the Welsh Conservatives debate on small business financial support. I call on Nick Ramsay to move the motion.

Motion NDM6207 Paul DaviesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Calls on the Welsh Government to provide more support for small businesses affected by the 2017 non-domestic rates revaluation, including more information regarding the £10m additional funding announced in December 2016.

Motion moved.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Presiding Officer. Today we are calling on the Welsh Government to provide more information regarding the £10 million additional funding for business rate relief announced before Christmas. The Valuation Office Agency’s business rate revaluation will result, as we know, in businesses in some parts of Wales facing huge hikes in their rates. Let’s be clear about what that means in practice. It means, at best, businesses having less money to invest in their premises, in their staff, and, ultimately, in their future. At worst, it means businesses having to shut up shop and call it a day. Rural businesses in particular are facing hardship in light of the Valuation Office Agency’s revaluations, with some experiencing a percentage rise in triple digits, and others stating that they will have to close because of the rate rises. The Welsh Retail Consortium has said that, following on from the revaluation in April 2017, current predictions are showing that the projected rate poundage for Wales could jump by a staggering 10 per cent, making Wales the highest taxed and least attractive place to do business in the UK, based on our rates system—not my words, not Welsh Conservative words; the words of the Welsh Retail Consortium.Now, as the Cabinet Secretary will know, I’ve been particularly concerned about all this from the outset because of the impact it particularly has in my constituency, where nearly 65 per cent of businesses will be affected by the revaluation. The Monnow Bridge Fish Bar in Monmouth will be hit by a 200 per cent plus rise, taking it from £9,800 to over £20,000. The Oasis hair salon in Monmouth will see its business rates almost doubled, from £4,250 to £7,110. In the 2016 budget, the UK Government set out a number of key policy changes in order to assist SMEs, including raising the small business rate relief threshold from £6,000. Welsh Conservatives believe that the same should happen here. Now, in July 2016, the Scottish Government requested submissions to the Barclay review into business rates. The Cabinet Secretary here has announced a review of business rates in 2018, and we warmly welcome this review; we believe it’s necessary. However, you can’t blame businesses for questioning whether this is too little, too late, for those SMEs that are facing substantial rises.Now, turning to the Cabinet Secretary’s announcement of a £10 million transitional relief scheme for small businesses affected by the revaluation, we know this will be available from 1 April, and, according to the Cabinet Secretary, will be in addition to the so-called existing £100 million tax cut for small businesses in Wales. We welcome this transitional relief scheme, but is it sufficient to cover the high rates some businesses will now face beyond 2017? The Welsh Government must now look at raising the rates relief bands and splitting the multiplier, as has happened across the border in England. In the meantime, we do at least have this commitment from the Welsh Government for extra funding—and we do welcome that—for businesses in high streets across Wales, and I know that some of the detail that the Cabinet Secretary has already announced does indicate that it will specifically apply to businesses in our ailing high streets, and, as I say, we welcome that.Cabinet Secretary, businesses now need clarity as to when and how this money will be allocated and how businesses will be applying for it and able to apply for it. We’re already in January, this has now gone on for weeks, months, and the clock is ticking. I ask this Chamber to support this motion, and let’s all get on with the job of helping Welsh businesses weather this storm and move on to brighter days ahead.

I have selected both amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane HuttDelete all and replace with:To propose the National Assembly for Wales:Recognises:a) non-domestic rates contribute £1bn towards the provision of public services in Wales;b) the Welsh Government will provide more than £200m of support for ratepayers in Wales in 2017-18 to pay non-domestic rates; andc) the Welsh Government’s 2017-18 Budget includes a new £10m transitional rate relief scheme to help businesses affected by the 2017 revaluation carried out by the independent Valuation Office Agency and a new £10m special targeted relief scheme to provide additional support to high-streets.

Amendment 1 moved.

Mark Drakeford AC: Formally.

I call on Adam Price to move amendment 2 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap IorwerthAdd as new point at start of motion and renumber accordingly:Welcomes the £10m additional business rate relief secured by Plaid Cymru as part of the 2017/18 budget negotiations.

Amendment 2 moved.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I agree with the vast majority of what the Member for Monmouthshire has said. We share the disappointment, of course, that the Government, in the first instance, hadn’t seen fit to bring its own recommendations for reforming the system in its entirety to decrease the significant burden on businesses in Wales. Certainly, there is evidence that shows, from different perspectives, that the burden in Wales is greater. That’s a very negative thing, of course, in terms of the competitiveness of our economy and in terms of the prosperity of our businesses. I do think that it would have been better to present those changes that were in the Labour manifesto sooner. That is, they were sufficiently clear in their manifesto. We could have a wider debate about a more radical reform of the policy, to tell the truth. We’ve discussed the possibility here of moving away from a business rates system entirely. But I don’t know why the Government didn’t introduce those changes sooner. Our amendment, of course, refers to the fact that we, at least, succeeded, because of the significant increase as a result of the revaluation seen in certain parts of Wales. He’s talked about his own constituency, but it’s also true in parts of the north—the north-west, I think, has seen, on average, the greatest increase. So, we felt, in the context of the discussions that we had with the Cabinet Secretary with regard to the budget, that this was a matter of priority.It would have been much better, of course, to have a more wide-ranging policy in place, but at least we succeeded, through the agreement that we reached with the Government, to double, truth be told, the level of temporary relief available to businesses. I’m pleased to see that that does include those sectors in terms of retail and hospitality that have expressed the greatest concern with regard to the revaluation. I do think that the Member for Monmouth is asking for something that’s perfectly reasonable. Businesses now are starting to plan for the next year, and, unfortunately, some of them—or more than just some; several—are in a situation of difficulty in terms of deciding whether they’re going to be able to continue to operate or not. So, it is important and I do hope that the Cabinet Secretary is listening to the appeal from the Member for clear and correct information about how the system’s going to work.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thanks for giving way; I agree with everything you said there, Adam Price. Part of the problem is that, although the revaluation kicks in in April, a number of businesses are having to decide whether to sign their leases now, at this point in time, and, without knowing what sort of system of rate relief will be in place, what package of support will be in place for them in April, some of them are saying, ‘Well, we just can’t take the risk and we’re better off getting out of the situation that we’re in now without waiting’.

Adam Price AC: Yes, and certainly that would be something that we would all want to avoid, truth be told, because as we always say—we say it all the time because it’s true—small businesses are the backbone of our economy throughout Wales. It’s certainly true in the rural areas, which have suffered the most as a result of this revaluation. So, I do hope that the Cabinet Secretary will be able to tell us how and when that more comprehensive information will be available to businesses so that they can make the decisions that they need to make. I agree with some of the wider comments that the Member made with regard to looking at the different methods we can use to adapt the system in Wales to ensure that it’s not, as is true at present, a fetter on economic development. We have to now look carefully, in the context of this more wide-ranging review of policy, at the more radical suggestions with regard to how we can create a taxation context for businesses that helps us, rather than places a burden on us.

David J Rowlands AC: I think we must all welcome and acknowledge the financial help afforded by the Welsh Government to businesses affected by the recent valuation process and indeed over the preceding years. However, we in UKIP are concerned that, given the scale of the recent valuation process and its consequences, the present funding levels may well prove inadequate. However, whether this funding is adequate or not, we feel that it’s essential that information on this rate relief scheme is readily available to those who qualify and the procedures and application processes involved are as simple and as accessible as possible.All too often, grant applications have been so complicated and convoluted that small businesses have been dissuaded from accessing the finance available. Following on from this, and in the same vein, the appeals procedures must also be as simple, available, and affordable as possible. In addition, time is often a crucial factor in this appeals procedure, as the increased financial burden placed on businesses by reaching the rates payable threshold can often be a crucial factor in whether a business survives or not. We understand that current appeals procedures can take up to a year or more to be decided, often proving far too long to prevent business closures.So, can I call upon the Welsh Government to put in place all the necessary apparatus to make sure that the appeals procedure is dealt with as expeditiously as possible? Because it is clear that these revaluations will impact on a large number of businesses with potentially disastrous consequences—something I’m sure all the parties in this Chamber are anxious to avoid.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I welcome the opportunity to briefly contribute to this debate. Like David Rowlands and others in the Chamber, I do welcome the moves that the Welsh Government have undertaken with the announcement of the additional money that has been put in to support businesses who have found themselves on the wrong end of this revaluation process. But that doesn’t take away, as we heard yesterday both from Nick Ramsay in his question to the First Minister and myself in questioning to the leader of the house, how there is little information there to understand exactly how this £10 million extra that was announced from 17 December is actually going to be used and distributed to assist businesses. As has already been addressed here this afternoon, there are businesses in a real dilemma about signing new leases, about making those commitments, and that information is desperately required. I do hope that the Minister today will use the opportunity in responding to this debate to give us a little more information, if not the entire package, I would hope, so that our constituents and businesses that have these concerns can actually understand how this additional money will make a difference. This morning, Nick Ramsay, Russ George and myself, along with the Petitions Committee Chairman, Mike Hedges, received a petition here in the Assembly from Sally Stephenson of the Pencil Case business in Cowbridge and David Cummings from the chamber of trade in Monmouthshire, who accentuated this issue around the lack of information and the importance of getting that information out as quickly as possible. I do think that this evening’s debate is offering a unique opportunity for the Minister to actually focus on getting that information and using the platform that this debate affords him to obviously inform the Assembly and people who are waiting for that information to come to make those business decisions. There is also the real logjam that people are finding when they’re seeking responses from the valuation office, in particular around appeals. This is a point that I’ve raised with the Minister before, about making sure that the valuation office does respond in a timely manner when a business does find itself on the wrong end of the valuation. Some of these increases in valuations have been absolutely astronomical—not in the tens of percentage points but in the hundreds of percentage points—increases from where they found themselves under the previous valuation. In particular, there do seem to be specific sectors that have particularly been hurt by this revaluation—the secondary shopping sector and in particular the food sector in the hospitality market. That does seem to have come off particularly worse when it comes to looking at where these valuations are hurting businesses that historically have had a pretty lean couple of years and really are teetering on the rope of whether they stay in business for the next 12 months or whether they just say, ‘Enough’s enough’. We appreciate that the business rate regime does need reforming, and we look forward to the way the Cabinet Secretary brings forward those discussions, in particular with a date of April next year. It cannot be right that you have a system that penalises businesses that was first brought forward in 1604, I think it was, when there was no Amazon, and when there was no online shopping. Ultimately, we really are in a competitive marketplace now that really has a dramatic impact on the viability of many shops and retailers in rural locations in particular, who have limited opportunities to diversify their income, and business rates are one of the key weights around those businesses’ necks. We have spoken at length about what we would like to see on this side of the house, which is the threshold being lifted from £6,000 up to £12,000 and then tapered up to £15,000. That would make a massive difference in the ability of businesses to invest in themselves, because we know that that money would not disappear into some holiday fund—it would be kept within the business to create jobs and to create investment. I do hope that, in the discussions leading up to the change in the business rate regime next April, the Cabinet Secretary does look at the opportunity around thresholds and around making sure that, in particular when it comes to the business rate multiplier, he does look at the suggestions that we have put forward previously when it comes to out-of-town shops and the big multiples and the rates that they might pay.So, I would implore the Cabinet Secretary to use his opportunity this evening to give more information as to how that additional money that he has made available on 17 December will be distributed and made available to businesses, because we are a little under nine weeks away from many of those businesses having to find that money to pay when it comes to the early part of the new financial year.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government—Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. Let me begin by just making a number of general points that haven’t been raised in the debate so far. I think it’s important to put on record that revaluation raises no extra money at all; it is not a tax-raising measure. It simply redistributes the burden so that it is more fairly shared between businesses across Wales. And while we recognise that there are businesses who face higher bills, there are far more businesses in Wales who find their bills going down and are able to do all those things with that additional money that other contributors to this debate have pointed to in using that opportunity to invest further in their businesses. The valuation agency is entirely independent of the Welsh Government, but where we are able to, and particularly in relation to appeals, I intend to act to make that system more effective, less burdensome and to the advantage of businesses. Let me say as well that we pay taxes for a reason. We pay taxes because we all get the collective benefits of doing so, and businesses get that benefit as well. All non-domestic rates collected in Wales go to sustaining those services on which businesses depend. The pavements on which their customers walk, the roads on which their customers drive to their businesses, the people who work in their businesses who are educated at the expense of the state, the national health service that provides for those employees when they are ill—all those services are available to businesses, and that’s why business rates are paid.

Darren Millar AC: I accept what you say, Minister—thank you for taking the intervention—about the revenue raised in taxation and the way that is spent, but of course, what we’re facing here is some communities being disproportionately hit by a significant increase, and not seeing any significant increase in their local services as a result of that additional taxation. Do you accept that that in itself causes a lot of disgruntlement amongst those business owners that are being affected by these increases?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, of course I understand that when bills change, those people who have to pay more are much more alert to that, and not all those people have the same ability to pay. That’s why, in the next financial year, we will provide over £200 million-worth of financial assistance to businesses in Wales, a greater sum than ever, ever before. It will support more than three quarters of all ratepayers here in Wales. Our £100 million small business rate relief scheme already supports more than 70 per cent of businesses in Wales. Over half of all eligible small businesses in Wales pay no rates at all, and we’ve extended our scheme into next year and will use this year to design a permanent scheme thereafter. Because we recognised from the very beginning that changes in Bills fall disproportionately on some shoulders, we introduced a £10 million transitional rate relief scheme at the very beginning of the process. That will provide additional support to more than 7,000 additional ratepayers, and the scheme is fully funded by the Welsh Government, unlike the scheme across our border, where people who are paying less have to give up some of that benefit in order to cushion the impact on people who have to pay more. If we did that in Wales, then the people who would be giving up their benefit would be the steel industry and healthcare centres and other businesses across Wales. We’ve gone on listening to what small businesses, and especially high-street retailers, have been telling us over the autumn—that despite this transitional relief there are some towns and communities that are particularly affected by the revaluation. I acknowledge that Nick Ramsay has regularly raised these concerns on behalf of businesses in his constituency. There are many high streets across the country where rates are falling, but we’ve recognised that some retailers need additional support. That’s why we have announced an additional £10 million over and above what was originally proposed for additional support for high-street retailers, including shops, cafes and pubs. Once again, we will provide that money in full from Welsh Government resources, and we will deliver it through a special targeted grant scheme. The relief scheme will be very similar to the previous Wales retail relief scheme, which was administered by local authorities. It will provide a flat rate reduction in liability for eligible ratepayers. For many ratepayers, particularly those currently only eligible for partial small business rate relief, the relief will reduce their remaining liability to nil. Now, I fully understand the calls around the Chamber for full details of the scheme to be made available, and I want to do that as soon as possible. I met officials earlier this week to accelerate this process, nevertheless, we have to design the scheme within the law, we have to consult with local authorities that will be responsible for its administration, and we need to talk to small business representatives as well, to make sure that that £10 million is used to the maximum effect. That will take a few weeks longer. As soon as we are able to conclude it, I will publish a written statement updating numbers on those details, and then that money will be put to work to support those businesses as we would wish to see it—[Interruption.] Yes, of course.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I’m very grateful for the way you’ve shone light on the process that is being undertaken, and I do appreciate you have to work within the law and the regulations. When you say a few weeks, might you be able to give us an indication of how long that might be? Because I know the first question I will get is: ‘What does a few weeks mean in this context?’

Mark Drakeford AC: I understand that, and all I can say is that I’ve committed to doing it as fast as we possibly can. Let me just tell you one dilemma, Andrew: if we work on it a bit longer, we may—and it is only may—be able to design the scheme in a way that the relief will go automatically to those who will get it, without requiring them to make an application for it. Now, I think if we could do that; that would be worth a little bit of extra time, because it will undoubtedly mean that more businesses will benefit, and will benefit automatically. The previous scheme relied on applications. We’re doing the work to see if that is possible. It may take a little bit longer, but it would make the scheme more effective. As soon as I’m in a position to do so, we will provide the details so that people can get the advantage that we wish to provide to them.

I call on Russell George to reply to the debate.

Russell George AC: Can I thank all those who took part in the Conservative debate today? Can I also declare an interest as an owner of a small business myself who, unfortunately for me, has to pay business rates? But I would like to say that I listened carefully to Adam Price’s comments today, and I agree with all he said. Many small businesses are under severe pressure, and it takes no pleasure at all in knowing that Welsh businesses are more disadvantaged than other businesses across the UK. One way that the Welsh Government can help reduce this burden is, of course, to support small businesses, especially for those affected by the non-domestic rates revaluation. I have to say, the Welsh Government has failed to plan properly for the revaluation process, and has been slow to react. Now, Nick Ramsay outlined in his contribution in the opening some examples of how businesses are being affected in his own constituency. I remember, in a previous debate, Nick highlighting a letter he received from one constituent inviting him to attend a closing down party, which illustrates, of course, the bleak picture that many businesses face. I thank David Rowlands for his contribution. Much of what David said was actually provided to us in evidence in the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee. Andrew R.T. Davies, of course, pointed out in his contribution the petition that was handed in today by Sally Stephenson, who handed in a petition of over 1,600 signatures. Sally owns that award-winning shop in Cowbridge, The Pencil Case, which is of course severely affected by the revaluation. It was good to speak to Sally and her colleagues today. In my own constituency, Members may remember Megan Lawley of Jazz Clothing, who contributed in the video footage on the screens of the Chamber, who said, basically, if she moved her business a few miles across the border into Shropshire, she’d be paying no business rates at all. Because that’s the reality. In England, if you’ve got a business with a rateable value of under £12,000, you pay nothing at all. In Wales, that limit is only £6,000 and that’s the reality for many businesses across Wales. Of course, also, during the Assembly election campaigns, I remember reading a press release from Labour, from Eluned Morgan, trumpeting the Labour Party pledge, when she visited The Hours coffee shop and bookshop—[Interruption.] We’ll see if Carl Sargeant is still cheering when I read this out: what the Labour Party promised was—and this is a quote from the press release—that Powys businesseswill breathe a sigh of relief if Labour is returned on May 5’because a Welsh Labour Government would cut the amount of business rates paid by small businesses in Powys.Well, nothing, of course, could be further from the truth. It was a phoney pledge, and, as the FSB has said—and I quote them here as well—an extension of the temporary small business rates relief scheme cannot be described as a tax cut, but it’s blatantly misleading and the worst form of spin-doctoring’.Those are not my words; those are the words of the FSB. That puts into some perspective as well why we’re not supporting the Government’s amendment b) today.I’m grateful, of course, to the Cabinet Secretary for the scheme that he’s brought forward—the extension of an extra £10 million. That’s welcome, very welcome indeed, and, again, that’s come about as a result of pressure from businesses themselves and Welsh Conservatives. But I would say our motion today has asked for more details—[Interruption.] And Plaid Cymru as well. Our motion today asked for details of the scheme and that’s not been brought about today. Now, I note that the Cabinet Secretary says he needs a few more weeks, but the revaluation was known about a long time ago. There was plenty of time to work up this in advance. But that’s not come forward, and that’s a result of lack of planning and a lack of interest in small businesses from the Welsh Government.So, I do hope today that the Welsh Government will bring forward quickly, as soon as possible—because, as Nick Ramsay said, businesses need that information in order to take forward their own planning, leases and so forth, as well. So, I’d urge the Welsh Government to bring that forward as soon as possible.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. 8. Voting Time

And that brings us to voting time. The first vote in on the Plaid Cymru debate on Tata Steel. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour nine, no abstentions, 44 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 9, Against 44, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6208.Click to see vote results

Amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 32, one abstention, 19 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 32, Against 19, Abstain 1.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6208.Click to see vote results

Amendments 2 and 3 deselected.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6208 as amendedTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises the vital strategic importance of the steel industry to Wales and its economy.2. Welcomes the significant support made available by the Welsh Government to keep steel production and steel jobs at all the TATA sites in Wales. 3. Notes the recent negotiations between trade unions and TATA on pensions and recognises that any changes to the pensions scheme are a decision for the workers through a democratic ballot and should be free of political interference. 4. Urges TATA to explain clearly and in full detail to workers impacted the implications of the agreement that has been reached.5. Notes that the First Minister has led discussions with senior TATA management over recent months to ensure workers’ rights are protected and will continue those discussions in the coming weeks.6. Recognises that the Welsh Government will continue to do everything in its power to protect workers, their jobs and ensure a sustainable steel industry in Wales.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 45, no abstentions, eight against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion NDM6208 as amended agreed: For 45, Against 8, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6208 as amended.Click to see vote results

The next vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on national grid cables. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 20, five abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 20, Against 28, Abstain 5.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6209.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 44, no abstentions, nine against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 44, Against 9, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6209.Click to see vote results

I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 44, no abstentions, nine against. Amendment 2 is therefore agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 44, Against 9, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 2 to motion NDM6209.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6209 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Believes that:a) the National Grid should use underground or undersea cables or alternatives to carry electricity through National Parks and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty in Wales where feasible;b) there should be a preference for underground cables or alternatives rather than electricity pylons in any new or current developments in Wales by the National Grid; andc) Ofgem should commit to continue and extend the Visual Impact Provision project for Wales to replace current pylons with underground cables or other alternatives.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 51, no abstentions, none against. And therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion NDM6209 as amended agreed: For 51, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6209 as amended.Click to see vote results

The next vote is on the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on bin collections. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 35 against. The motion is not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 18, Against 35, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6205.Click to see vote results

If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour eight, no abstentions, 45 against. Amendment 1 is therefore not agreed.

Amendment not agreed: For 8, Against 45, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6205.Click to see vote results

I call for a vote on amendment 2 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 35, no abstentions, 18 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 35, Against 18, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 2 to motion NDM6205.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6205 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes Wales’ success in reaching 60 per cent recycling in 2015/16 and achieving the highest recycling rate in the UK and the 4th highest rate in Europe.2. Accepts the autonomy of local authorities, in the spirit of localism, in deciding how often to collect residual waste whilst recognising that less frequent waste collections do not lead to increased fly tipping or constitute public health risks.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 35, no abstentions, 18 against. And therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion NDM6205 as amended agreed: For 35, Against 18, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6205 as amended.Click to see vote results

The next vote is on the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on small business financial support. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 18, no abstentions, 35 against. The motion is therefore not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 18, Against 35, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6207.Click to see vote results

If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, 26 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 27, Against 26, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6207.Click to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6207 as amended.To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Recognises:a) non-domestic rates contribute £1bn towards the provision of public services in Wales;b) the Welsh Government will provide more than £200m of support for ratepayers in Wales in 2017-18 to pay non-domestic rates; andc) the Welsh Government’s 2017-18 Budget includes a new £10m transitional rate relief scheme to help businesses affected by the 2017 revaluation carried out by the independent Valuation Office Agency and a new £10m special targeted relief scheme to provide additional support to high-streets.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 34, no abstentions, 18 against. And therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion NDM6207 as amended agreed: For 34, Against 18, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6207 as amended.Click to see vote results

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

If you’re leaving the Chamber, could you do so quietly and quickly, please? We’re going to move to the short debate.

9. 9. Short Debate: Righting the Wrongs—Historical Allegations relating to Pupils at the Royal Cambrian and Llandrindod Wells Residential Schools for Deaf Children

We’re moving to the short debate now, and I call on Julie Morgan to speak on the topic she has chosen—Julie.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The title of my debate is Righting the Wrongs—Historical Allegations relating to Pupils at the Royal Cambrian and Llandrindod Wells Residential Schools for Deaf Children. I have agreed, Deputy Presiding Officer, to give David Melding and Joyce Watson one minute each after my contribution.I was prompted to hold this debate as a result of my constituent, Mr Cedric J. Moon MBE, writing to ask me to seek an apology and compensation for the former pupils of the Llandrindod Wells schools for the deaf who have alleged to him that they had been abused in the school in the 1950s. These allegations were made to Mr Moon spontaneously, when he was a voluntary researcher for a book on the history of the school, which was commissioned by the British Deaf History Society. The book is called ‘From a War-torn Town to a Country Exile—A History of the Royal Cambrian and Llandrindod Wells Residential Schools for the Deaf 1846-1973’.Mr Moon is a distinguished campaigner for the rights of deaf people and was awarded an MBE for his work for services to equality and voluntary service to the deaf community in south Wales. In his research, he interviewed many former pupils of the school and also read the school log books and minutes of the governing body. The book was published in September 2016. Mr Moon was told that, in 1953, sexual abuse had been committed against some boys by a housemaster. These acts were described in the school log book as ‘unsavoury incidents’. The log book says that, on 19 January 1953, the boys’ complaints were investigated and, on the following day, 20 January, there was a meeting at the school, where several boys were interviewed. The log book says that, As a result of enquiry (unsavoury details)’, the housemaster said he would leave the following day. On the 22 January 1953, Mr X was reported to have left Llandrindod Wells by coach that morning.Pupils reported that Mr X visited some of the boys’ dormitories in the night and committed sexual offences against them. Such incidents also happened on various weekend walks. Mr Moon writes that it seems that Mr X selected boys with poor speech skills, presumably because they would find it more difficult to complain. In fact, the actual complaint was made by a pupil with good speech. Quoting directly from the book: There is no further mention of Mr X in the log book. There is no hint of police involvement. There is no mention of the affair in the WJEC minutes. Mr X was not dismissed but resigned and went back to England. The matter seems to have been swept under the carpet to avoid embarrassment to the WJEC and the school hierarchy. Justice was not served to the pupils. It is unclear as to whether the parents of the pupils were informed of the events.’ End quote. So, as well as hearing about these incidents from former pupils, they are clearly noted in the school’s log book, which made Mr Moon feel he had to include them in the book. The survivors of the abuse that took place in the Llandrindod residential school for the deaf are a small group now, in their 70s, and are understandably reluctant to go to the police or social services, especially when there are communication issues. I wanted to raise this on the floor of the Chamber to see whether there is any way of righting this historical injustice. I understand that some of the survivors are still affected by what happened to them and that the passage of time has not healed their scars, as the book says. All disabled children are sadly at a greater risk of abuse than children without learning and physical difficulties. However, it seems that deaf children with speech and language problems are one of the highest risk groups. As the reports in the book illustrate, the abuse only came to light when one of the boys who had good communication skills was abused, because he was able to make himself clearly understood and he reported it. The NSPCC says disabled children are at significantly greater risk of physical, sexual and emotional abuse and neglect than non-disabled children, and deaf children are among the high-risk groups. Evidence comes from a US study, which, according to the National Deaf Children’s Society, is the most up-to-date research on this issue. It found that children with disabilities are three to four times more likely to be maltreated than non-disabled peers. The US study of children in schools in Omaha, Nebraska in 1994-5 found that children with communication disorders are more likely to be physically and sexually abused than children without those disorders. And a different study, commissioned by the NSPCC and carried out by the Child Protection Research Centre in Edinburgh, found that in addition to being at greater risk of experiencing child abuse, deaf and disabled children experience a range of barriers in accessing appropriate responses. The abuse of deaf and disabled children is underreported and often hidden, and a range of myths and stereotypes surround the abuse they experience. These perpetuate the silence around such abuse and present barriers to help seeking timely recognition and effective responses. Indeed, it is only now that some of the Llandrindod Wells pupils have spoken of the abuse, which is 50 years later, and I understand that that has been cathartic for them. But, of course, many of them have never told their families and friends.So, what can be done? The WJEC that ran the school no longer exists. A brief history of the school shows that the Cambrian Institution for the Deaf and Dumb opened in 1847 in Aberystwyth, but in April 1850 moved to Swansea. The great and the good of south Wales served on the management committee. Children from the school played in Cwmdonkin Park, near Dylan Thomas’s home, who described them as those ‘Who speak on a finger and thumb’ in one of his poems. In 1941, after the Swansea blitz, the school was evacuated to mid Wales, initially as a temporary measure, but in 1948, the Welsh Joint Education Committee took over the responsibilities for deaf children in Wales, and the school opened in Llandrindod Wells in 1950. The school was controlled by a body of governors, comprised of one representative from each local authority, and it closed in 1973. I’m informed by the Welsh Government that the successor authority to the WJEC is the Rhondda Cynon Taf local authority.So, what can be done? What am I looking for by having this debate? What I’m looking for is an acknowledgement by an authority, by a public body, that this abuse did happen, an apology and compensation to show that, for those who were victim to abuse, we don’t condone the covering up of allegations of abuse, even those that happened such a long time ago.Looking back at what happened, I know it was a very different era, but it is still shocking that there was never an official inquiry and the departure—the member of staff at the centre of the allegations simply left without any sanction. These young boys, who were aged 10 to 11 at the time, were living away from home, living away from their parents. They had no hearing. Many of them could not communicate, and they were abused by an adult who was in a position of trust. I do not think we can leave it to rest there. We have to speak out because they couldn’t.

David Melding AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, can I pay tribute to Julie Morgan for that most eloquent and moving speech, and also for all the work she’s done over the years for children, and her current work for the all-party group on children? I’ve also had the honour of meeting Cedric Moon, and I also pay tribute to him, in this particular case, for bringing this matter to our attention, but also for his general work for people with a hearing impairment. I just want to make one additional point to what Julie has said. As the prevalence of child abuse is becoming more and more starkly apparent, in the last 20 years we have stopped being naive and we’ve started to see the world as it is. As this has happened, many people who are now in old age, who may have buried a lot of these memories, are obviously seeing these matters being discussed and are thinking about their own experiences and a need for some counselling and some restorative statement to be made. Given that the school has gone, and the alleged perpetrator is long dead—but we need to do something because these people were failed by society.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to pay tribute to Julie Morgan for bringing so eloquently to the Chamber what is a very sensitive issue in the way that she has. I think, like David has already said, we have, in society, moved on. Your phrase is absolutely right: from being naive to opening our eyes to reality. The real issue here, it seems, according to the allegations, is that these individuals as children were isolated, vulnerable, disabled, and then abused. That is something we now recognise within society as very often flagging up the potential for that to happen. The only contribution and additionality that I want to make here is that Julie has said that the survivors want an acknowledgement, at the very least, of what has happened. Consequently, people will need support. I think what is important here is that this group of people get the support that they want, in the way that they agree they need it.

Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to reply to the debate. Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Firstly, I’d like to thank Julie Morgan for leading this debate today. While the comments I can make on these specific allegations are necessarily limited, it is always important for us to learn from the past and acknowledge the lifelong consequences of abuse for survivors. As Julie set out the specific issues concerning historical allegations relating to pupils at the Royal Cambrian and Llandrindod Wells residential schools for deaf children, first and foremost, anyone with any information relating to abuse or neglect should report the information to the relevant local authority or the police, who have the duty and the powers to investigate. We take all such allegations extremely seriously and I’d encourage those people who feel they need care and support, as a result of abuse, to contact their local authority for advice and the care of support services in their area. I know we all agree that the abuse of children is abhorrent and unacceptable. We must ensure that we do all we can to prevent abuse happening. As has been mentioned in this debate, disabled children can be particularly vulnerable to abuse. Protecting vulnerable people is a priority for this Government. It’s been pointed out that disabled children were not always listened to; that, at times, they struggled to secure attention; and they were not afforded the same rights as those who were not disabled. Working with local authority partners, there is now an entitlement to advocacy support. Children, particularly those with communication needs, can access a trusted adult, including a family member, the child’s social worker, independent visitor, or a child advocate. We know that disabled children did not always get the support when they needed it. We’ve made those changes now. So, if a disabled child is at risk of abuse, neglect or harm, they will get immediate support. The changes we’ve made will ensure children with disabilities are listened to, and that they get the support that they do need. It’s putting the child first. It’s a child-centred approach. We’ve moved on significantly. Members will be aware that we’ve recently introduced the social services and well-being legislation, where professionals and our statutory partners now have a duty to report abuse. We also established the national independent safeguarding board and the regional safeguarding boards. They strengthen our safeguarding procedures and bring professionals together to ensure our aspiration to prevent abuse is high on the agenda. The boards are also, Llywydd, supported further by the all-Wales child protection procedures, and the review group have made a mandate to produce and share good practice across Wales. This does strengthen the safeguarding arrangements here in Wales. As a Government, we’ve learnt that there should never be complacency that these problems are of the past. There is a need for continuing our vigilance. As we’ve learnt more from those who’ve been abused, we have acted by introducing legislation and through our policies and guidance. Llywydd, we have taken action to safeguard against abuse, promote welfare and treat all children with dignity and respect. As a Government we must, and will, continue to listen, to learn and to legislate, and we will ensure that Welsh institutions discharge their duty of care to protect children from abuse. This is a job for all of us. Thank you.

Thank you very much. That brings today’s proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:54.